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Author Topic: Chin breed/color identification  (Read 1913 times)

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chinsforlife

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Chin breed/color identification
« on: July 09, 2015, 07:52:41 PM »

Hello all.  I bought a chinchilla today.  This is Billy "the kid".  While in the store under the fluorescence he seemed like a violet-beige.  In the house he is very silvery, with barely a hint of beige, but his eyes aren't red like beiges are supposed to be.  They seem somewhat purple, but maybe that is wishful thinking, as I read that purple eye color can develop in sapphire-beiges.  His ears aren't extremely tan on the outside, and have more fur than skin, unlike beiges, who may even have freckels.  With all of my doubts, and thinking he may be a violet, there is still some sort of beige tinge to him....just barely.  One photo makes him seem extremely beige, but none of the photos I have seen online have had the soft-blueness, and yet still remain so solid in the upper body portion.  Any help identifying it's mutation would be awesome.



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BLS Chins

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Re: Chin breed/color identification
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2015, 04:27:02 PM »

He is a violet.
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BLS Chins
Hobby breeder and rescue in south central pa
specializing in ebony, tan, goldbar, standard and black velvets

chinsforlife

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Re: Chin breed/color identification
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2015, 07:17:35 PM »

Thanks!  I am wanting to breed him with my standard grey.  This means that all of their children will be violet carriers.  What is the best way to eventually get more violet chinchilla?  I am referring to outside of inbreeding; if he has a daughter v/c, breeding her to him will yield a 50% chance of more violet kits. Should I buy a violet carrier from somewhere else for breeding, or is inbreeding alright?
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Re: Chin breed/color identification
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2015, 08:54:20 PM »

You got him from a pet store so that means he should not be bred. This is for several reasons. You dont have a pedigree which tracks relations as well as colors and show records (any chin not show quality should not be bred). You dont know his genetic health. Chinchillas have many many genetic problems that you chin could have (and not show signs yet) or be a carrier of (and pass those problems on to his offspring). Look up malo (teeth problems with no cure, always winds up in death), kidney failure, heart murmurs, seizures, fur chewing.... All those things can kill a chinchilla or severely shorten a life span.

In breeding is not safe. It pulls out the worst traits in the kit making a bad thing worse. Line breeding can be safely done but only by experienced breeders and only when using the best of the best animals.

I would suggest keeping your chinchillas apart (not even play times together). Do some good research and look up a reputable show breeder in your area. Breeding should always be done to improve the next generation, not for cute babies or for a certain color. The only way to do that is to go to shows and use quality pedigreed stock.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 08:56:23 PM by BLS Chins »
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BLS Chins
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chinsforlife

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Re: Chin breed/color identification
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2015, 09:04:54 PM »

So, I should only breed for shows?  I am not following that logic.  If the breeds could be so horrible, why do pet stores sell them?  I am not exactly interested in breeding for shows, more so to enjoy the gifts of life my chins have to offer myself, themselves and friends, and find the thought of only breeding for shows for the greater good of chinchilla-kind to be repulsive.  They never asked for that.  While some may consider theirs to be stronger, all I asked was whether it was safe to inbreed.  Logic presented by yourself dictates no, however it is scientifically debatable as they have evolved and survived with inbreeding being a source of their sexual behavior.  I am looking for more evidence other than bias.  Is there an geneticist PhD on this forum who can answer?

Also, hereditary diseases have appeared in pedigreed chins, and any animal dies with complications at old age.  While I trust that people know what they are doing in attempting to breed genetic diseases out of chinchilla, or any animal, dna of source chinchillas were still responsible of any and all given malfunctions in the code itself, and will randomly be present no matter how much you breed them with the healthiest of their species.  My point is 1) Why should I conform to a system of heirarchy and 2) How is a pedigree noteworthy to my causes, in relation to the above presented argument.  Does every single chinchilla breeder have a pedigree for their babies?  I could go to a corporate petstore and they would say no.

Obviously, many if not all breeders start from scratch somewhere, and my chinchilla are very beautiful, without doctrine of their heritage.  I was created without regard to my heritage, and am pretty happy to be here. My motives are out of pure inerest in breeding, love of chinchilla, and seeking accomplishment with the creating of a happy chinchilla family.  Disease is by no means a goal, and realize that genetics can be complicated.  However, with your rationalization, it would be logical to get blood tests to know what to expect in their future.  Lets say I did so, and found the likelyhood of complications to be nil, they still wouldn't be deemed worthy of breeding, as there is no piece of paper showing their heritage, and wouldn't be noticed in shows anyways.  It is for this reason, blood testing not being as noteworthy as pedigrees, if not more so, that I would detest participating in anything of the source: they are doing it wrong. Cute babies are awesome.  Where one could argue that I don't have enough money to invest in pedigreed chinchilla, I could argue that a DNA test is the only way to validate their pedigrees being better for all of chinchilla kind, and I sure as heck cannot afford that.

To note, I am not arguing for inbreeding, as obiously to ask I must expect complications.  I am searching for a concrete answer from a scientific source without bias.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 09:41:57 PM by chinsforlife »
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Re: Chin breed/color identification
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2015, 07:04:34 AM »

A pedigree tracks the health for multiple generations showing/proving that it is not in the lines you are using therefore greatly reducing the risk of any of kits developing them. That's the point if selective breeding. You point out they inbred in the wild. This is true, but the average life span due to that is barely 5 years. With selective breeding (by using quality animals and pedigrees to reduce unwanted health problems) they now live up to 20 years. Breeding is always to improve. Showing is the best way to ensure you are doing that. With out breed standards chins or any animals quality would go to Hell in a few generations.

There are no genetic tests that can be done which is why it's so important to make sure your are starting without those problems. It's much more than a piece of paper. PhD means little in the pet world cause there are little to no chinchilla specific studies so we research and apply things from other animals. With any pet you can breed out problems but only by knowing what issues are in which line and pairing appropriately. By in breeding any animal you massively increase the risk of genetic problems. There has been almost 100 years of research done by ranchers in conjunction with their vets. Just cause it wasn't published doesn't make it any less true. Contact a few rancher and other breeders, it's not personal opinion. It's a fact pedigrees are valuable

Breeding without a pedigree is similar to breeding a dog from a shelter. Well it looks like a Shepard so we are going to breed it with no worries about the likely good of horrible genetics in the lines (bad hips which they are known for). Would you breed a stray cat cause it's cute?

Pet stores sell them cause they make a profit point blank that's it. Most of them come from fur farmers and ones like petco and petsmart only pay $25.... So there is huge amounts of money to be made since they sell them for $150... Pet stores are very uneducated in general about the pets they sell. They don't supply any health guarantees (maybe a week or two) but that doesn't help when your 3 yr old chin develops malo and dies. Once your leave the pet store does nothing.

Chins are specifically sold without pedigrees because they have a reason not to be bred. If a chin is to small, has a genetic problem, a related chin has a problem, line doesn't produce milk or are poor mother's, it's poorly bred by a byb.... Consider why your chin wound up in a pet store. You have no idea if it's sibling died of something that you chin could pass on. That is why going directly to the breeder is so important. Breeders are there for the education. They support you for the life of the chin and help with problems. We make little to no profit. So telling you too contact us for information doesn't help us in any way. We want to help guide you too producing healthy cute kits for your friends and clients. But you have to be open to listening to people without a million scientific studies. 100 yrs experience teaches a lot
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 07:12:11 AM by BLS Chins »
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Re: Chin breed/color identification
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2015, 08:30:34 AM »

First let me say that I am not a geneticist and may therefore be disregarded by you. I would however, implore you to consider my response as an educated and intelligent one regardless of my credentials in the genetics world.

There are many problems with the breeding of unpedigreed animals. First and foremost, that there are no genetic tests for many of the ailments which will be compounded with inbreeding. For example, there are no tests that would indicate females with small pelvis. Why is this important? Because a female with a small pelvis is not able to naturally birth her young. You mention the wild populations and how they breed regardless of ailment, the reality of that is that in the wild, chinchillas die young. All animals do, when in comparison with their domestic counterparts. This is because of natural selection. In the wild, without veterinary care, the problem would sort itself out without human heartache or headache. Referencing the specific ailment of small pelvis, a female in the wild unable to naturally birth would die in childbirth and her offspring would therefore not exist to reproduce such problem. Another ailment that cannot be genetically tested for would be malocclusion. And again referencing a wild population, breeding with disregard to health, those animals would often live long enough to reproduce (which is why, unfortunately, this particular ailment is still prevalent today). HOWEVER, in the wild there is nobody to purchase said offspring. In domestic chinchillas, owners of such chinchillas would be left with a chinchilla that would live a VERY short and VERY unhealthy life. Requiring frequent and unpleasant vet care and eventually dying of starvation. The wild population would also suffer in such a manner, but would relate to "if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around, does it make a sound". There are no human caretakers to witness the excruciating life that those chinchillas live.

You mention that chinchillas did not ask to be bred for shows and I do agree, they did not. But chinchillas did not ask to live excruciating, stress-filled lives either and that's what many ailments would allow them. Because in the domestic world, chinchillas receive vet care. And while that on the surface seems like a great thing, a sick life for a chinchilla is no life at all. I can show you countless stories of the suffering of malo chinchillas, or the stories of mothers who couldn't birth. It's not pleasant either.

Now, in regards to the base question of inbreeding being problematic. In a well established, ailment-free pair, inbreeding for a generation has been shown to be beneficial. It is done by respected ranchers successfully for greater strengths. However, inbreeding essentially "doubles down" on what is already present. So if your chinchilla has bad (or good) genetics, inbreeding will bring forth those genetics stronger. In healthy animals, that's a great thing. In animals with poor genetics, it's simply going to make sicker offspring.

Aside from noting parentage and possible ailments within a line, a pedigree also shows occurrences of inbreeding/linebreeding. Without a pedigree, you do not know if your chinchilla is already inbred and therefore worsening the problem.

I agree that the nature of animals allows for random ailment to occur even in the healthiest of lines. That is obviously true, but randomly occurring here and there...and occurring with almost certainty are two entirely different things and without knowing genetic history you have no idea if that is what you are breeding towards.

My suggestion is NOT to not breed. Babies are fun, you're correct. However, my suggestion is to breed for healthy animals regardless of whether or not you intend to participate in the show system.  An animal can be otherwise healthy, even if not show quality. However, to do so, requires knowledge of the genetic history to some degree.

And on a final note, in relation to your comment in regards to human life...I lead a happy life, and while not genetically perfect I enjoy watching my children live and breath and be happy. However, if my genetics were so that children of mine had even the slightest chance of having a debilitating disease that ran in mine or my spouses lineage...*I* would not have bred.
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GrayRodent

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Re: Chin breed/color identification
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2015, 07:07:07 PM »

I had a pet store chin. It lived two years. Diagnosed with genetic malocclusion. Please get good stock.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 08:21:02 PM by GrayRodent »
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I'm a programmer not a chinchilla breeder. I learn by asking questions just like you.
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