Chinchilla Community Forums
Chinchillas => Conformation and Quality => Topic started by: Debbie.nl.ca on September 22, 2006, 04:42:24 PM
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Hi all,
How many shades of tan are there?
Got pics?
My little hetero beige female kit born 9/11, well I'm not sure she is hetero.
Her color is rustier than my toupy beige heteros.And as I remember I had no trouble seeing the white underside. This little kit seems to be wrapped, but so very light it's hard to tell, yet I guess.
I have a couple of pics of her in my album.
Thanks
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::silly::Looks like a very light tan rap to me, especially if the belly is not white. Some people will refer to them as pastels, but that is not an "accepted" name. With the MCBA it would still be shown in the beige division even if it were a dark tan. But ... the heritage is the only thing that can tell for sure. If there is an ebony or ebony carrier in the history of this little one it can be a tan. It takes a beige and an ebony to make a tan OR one that is carrying the ebony gene, even though it may not be visible. The ebony or ebony carrier could go back 5 generations or more without showing up till now.
::wave::
Jo Ann
I'll try to get my album going and put a couple of pictures up.
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I'll try to get my album going and put a couple of pictures up.
I can't wait.
Yes his Mom is a hetero and Dad a dark ebony.
I love this waiting to see what color. ;D
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::silly::Well, I did get 3 photos into my album before it decided to not work any more, so I will post the 4th one here and add it later ... when I can get my eyes uncrossed and before I verbalize what I am thinking. :D
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Awesome pics Jo Ann,
Last night I was thinking, na he is just a hetero, but looking at the pic below, na I think he is a very light tan. ;D
I post another pic of him in a few weeks.
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Hay I was wondering what you think Ping is? The breeder I got him for said he was a pastel? He doe's not have a white tummy. He does't have red eye's. ::shrug::
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I put a new pic of him in the galley. ::silly::
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::silly::Did the breeder give you a card with the colors of the parents, grandparents and/or futher back in his line?
Nobody can tell you for sure without knowing the colors in the family history.
It is next to impossible to get a good picture of a tan/a beige/a TOV "Brown Velvet".
The beige and the TOV Brown Velvet would/should have white bellies.
A "pastel" is not really an "accepted" color ... basically, they must have ebony and beige in the background.
Ebony (dark eyes) and Beige (pink/ruby/dark red eyes) can produce a tan (dark eyes, not any red in them)... there are varying shades of tan but, they are all technically a 'tan' ... some refer to them as a 'tan rap' (medium tan), a 'pastel' (very light tan), or a 'chocolate' (dark tan), but, in reality they are all "tan".
IF it does not have ebony in the background, it is not a tan.
A TOV "Brown Velvet", is a mix between a beige and a black velvet and usually has dark eyes ... they should have white tummies, but I have seen them with a beige tone belly (probably having ebony or ebony carrier somewhere back in the history when they have the "dirty belly"), but they should always have a stripe of fur across the front paws that is darker than the surrounding fur on the front paws.
Basically, your best bet is get the family history on him and go from there. That alone will give you the true color.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Hay I was wondering what you think Ping is? The breeder I got him for said he was a pastel? He doe's not have a white tummy. He does't have red eye's.
I just looked at ping and he looks like a beautiful tan! He is lovely, buy the way!
Tans are like Hetero Beiges, when you look at them in regular house light their eyes can look black because they are just so dark red. They showed up perfectly red in the picture you took of him. I bet if you hold him in front of a window in the right light you will see the red.
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I was talking to Pam she was getting a lot of these b/c trying to get a brown velvet? His Dad was I Black velvet and mom was a dark beige?
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I have a Black Velvet that breeds like that. All of his babies seem to have dark tummies. I did some research and found that sometimes if you have a velvet that has veiling all the way down to the white belly, the veiling can continue onto the white of the belly in the babies. They look like ebony carriers but have no ebony in the background.
I've sold of of the babies born here like that, but it would be interesting to breed one and see if their babies get the white tummies back.
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::silly::Hi Jamie,
That's like Mixer ... looks like an ebony, but came from a standard and a black velvet.
Remember the little female kit I got from you ... (6 years ago) ... we thought it was a beige, but the mom had carefully and evenly trimmed all the ends off it's fur (to the point it was almost not evedent it had been chewed) ... it turned out to be a brown velvet ... My Mocha ... She was my favorite of all my chins! I put her with my prize tan (Punkin) and they gave me a litter of quads ... all tan boys ... I still have all of them. I have put all of them into breeding with ebonies in hopes of more beautiful dark tans like Punkin. They have all done very good ... giving me tans and ebonies in each litter ... until this spring ... I was very surprised when I found a beautiful black velvet kit! That was his grandmother's side of the family showing up! ::nod:: He is now with a standard gray female ... wonder what they will have? ::) There is tan, black velvet, beige and ebony in his background.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Beiges/tans are so much fun eh! rofl
Your never quite sure to look at them.
And boy can lighting make them look so different. ::nod::
Chinpo,
Ping looks like a fine tan to me too.I love him. ::Lovehearts::
If they said Mom was a dark beige, and Ping was a pastel, in our terms I would say the Mom was a dark Tan, and Ping maybe the same. He would/could have been a tad litter when he was younger, so they felt it was different then the Mom.
Question,
what we here call a dark tan, is that what some call a chocolate?
While some seem foxier than others, would that be a lack of standard.
Some pics show dark tans as real dull brown, but very dark. While others seem dark rusty brown.
What is the preferred/standrad tone for the browns?
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:blush2: Yes the Breeder called him a pastel, He was lite when I bought him home He has changed so much. The lighting can make look so different.
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::silly::
:blush2: Yes the Breeder called him a pastel, He was lite when I bought him home He has changed so much. The lighting can make look so different.
If at all possible you want to look at a chin under the natural sun light outside and/or a light bulb that is labeled "natural sunlight".
Floresent lighting is the worst lighting in which to look at a chin.
... Question,
what we here call a dark tan, is that what some call a chocolate?
Yes, dark tan is often referred to as a chocolate.
While some seem foxier than others, would that be a lack of standard.
Not quite sure what you are asking here ... by "foxier" are you saying thicker fur or more red cast to the fur? Or all round quality and size of the chin?
Some pics show dark tans as real dull brown, but very dark. While others seem dark rusty brown.
What is the preferred/standrad tone for the browns?
The rusty brown is one that has a reddish cast to it ... you do not want to breed these, strive for the blue/gray hue rather than the red/rusty hue/cast when you breed and when you show. Sometimes it is very obvious, other times you have to put the two side by side under natural lighting to see the difference. Even the smallest hit of red under he trained eyes of a judge will set your chin down at the far end of the table and out of the running.
I have both in my herd, because I did not know at the time I got them. I let those having a red cast be adopted as "pet quality" ... nothing wrong with it, just it is not good for breeding if you are going to show. It is still just as lovable as one with a gray/blue hue to it's fur. I will not continue breeding these, but will find good homes for them.
The blue/gray hue on a light to medium show beige will make it look almost like a violet. Sometimes I have to double check the cards to make sure, or take them into a different lighting.
Never go by pictures when buying a chin ... allot can be done with the lighting and/or a photo program to make them look much different than they really are. Different computer settings can make them appear different. The breeder is not trying to fool you (hopefully not) because the beige and the ebony are very hard to get the real color to show in a picture. I have seen pictures that made a beautiful violet look like a TOV/brown velvet. In another picture on a site, there was a dark ebony/violet carrier that looked like a dark rusty-colored tan ... strictly due to the lighting.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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The blacks with black that extends clear down to the belly are infact a black ebony hybrid. wether or not it is on the ped. these chins due infact carry a "eb" gene.
There are many different ebony genotypes. some are less wellknow then others. the ones that are most likely the culprit. is either the "busse" or the "french blue" both are accumulative veiling extenders. that apear only as well veiled chins in the the hetro. form and many can also have reasonable good appearing bellies in the hetro or lighter phases.
any of these blacks should be treated as any other eb.
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::silly::Hi RMC,
Is this why some blacks/black velvet/Gunning Black (all the same thing) will carry the solid black veiling all the way down to the white belly instead of black to graduating to the shades of gray and then to the white belly?
When you have a black velvet that shows a white belly, but the inner part of the fur on the belly (closest to the belly) is black, is this also an ebony influence?
You have my curiosity up. ::) I am learning more and more why it is referred to at the "wild card" in the mutant colors.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Yep that is the eb. influence. besides the lack of grey sides they easiest place to idenify it is between the front legs and under the chin.
THe black velvet is probably one of the easiest mutations to breed as far as quality ,inprovement ect. you just have to watch out for the eb. influence and deal with it appropriately so it doesn't spread through out you herd.
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While some seem foxier than others, would that be a lack of standard.
Not quite sure what you are asking here ... by "foxier" are you saying thicker fur or more red cast to the fur? Or all round quality and size of the chin?
You answered in the second part, I was referring to the color/red cast.
Funny because I like the rusty tans, over the browner, I call it mousy looking.
Reminds me of a dull hair dye job, while the rusty cast in the tans makes them seem brighter.
I have seen the cast in a few standards and I don't like it.
I like to blue hues in them, and the bv's, and ebonies.
I don't use them in breeding, and sell them as pets, but I think the "rusty" looks nice in the beiges.
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I just put a pic in my album of a good shot of the difference between Moms beige coat and the beige/tan maybe's coat.
I like the kits coat color, is that the difference in the beiges and tans?
Could she still be a beige but rusty? Not good. ::think::
She is 3 weeks now.
I'll post a better shot of her whole body now at 3 weeks, just wanted to show what I was talking about, and find out whats desired.
I will spit up this pair I think, and put the ebony with a standard.
I'm only selling these as pets, but we all know we have no control over what customers do.
So rather than take a chance, I wouldn't breed this combo if it's not " right" /a good color.
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This is what I was looking for, thanks chinchillagrl06
Gary Neubauer Q&A Session (http://www.chins-n-quills.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51118)
I see such a big difference between the light tans, and the mediums, but not so much between the med. tans, and the dark tans.
In most pics the dark tans look true brown like chocolate, but the med browns look only slightly lighter and rustier brown.
Is this an accurate observation? ::think::
My new little possible tan kit looks just like my tov homo with out the white belly.
Would that be an accurate discription of a light tan?
::think::
Gee I wish I had a bigger breeder handy to me.
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Ok lets see if I can get a color on this little guy.
Here's my 9/11, beige/tan belly, and his Moms, plus his eye. He has a blue ring, and an inner ring of kinda blue ring right in the dark red eye. His Mom is hetero and has a much lighter brighter red eyes.
Refering to what Jamie said in the thread Re: Tans or Beiges?????
Gee is seems more obvious on those pics, but side by side Mom and kit look much the same.
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What is the Dad's color?
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At three weeks old it is way to early to evaluate the quality of the kits. I have had kits that look good at a young age then don't when thwey are older. I havbe also seen chins that don't look good at a young age then mature into top quality chins .
Any thing under 8 months old is only a guess at quality.
Ask all the top breeders how many top quality kits they have sold at weaning. because they weren't quality. Only too grow up into top quality(includeing GSC) chins that the original breeders wish they hadn't sold.
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Jamie,
Dad is an ebony/poss.vc carrier, but with a standard back 4 generations ago.
Mom is a hetero from a standard dame, & tov homo sire that came from a standard and bv pairing.
This kit was born 9/11.
I just love the tans, but how do you get good tans with out the ebony kits showing the red tint?
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Then she is a light tan. She wouldn't be a pastel since she couldn't be Homo for the beige gene.
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THe original term "pastel" was a recessive charcoal dominant beige hybrid
and the term "tan" was a dominant ebony dominant beige hybrid.
Now some use the term pastel as a light phase tan,and others use it as a homo beige/ebony chin.
If you don't want offcolor/red kits don't use offcolor breeders. Extremely clear ebs and beiges will not produce offcolor kits. Clarity is a accumulative recessive mutation and must be treated as such in breeding.
Remember clarity is not standard but a" mutation" and must be treated as any other accumulative recessive mutation. The only pigments in fur are red/yellow and brown/black and the original agouti pattern is brown/black with a yellow bar and underfur.
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Thanks Jamie ::thumbsup::
From the information you've given that's what I was thinking.
THe original term "pastel" was a recessive charcoal dominant beige hybrid
and the term "tan" was a dominant ebony dominant beige hybrid.
Now some use the term pastel as a light phase tan,and others use it as a homo beige/ebony chin.
If you don't want offcolor/red kits don't use offcolor breeders. Extremely clear ebs and beiges will not produce offcolor kits. Clarity is a accumulative recessive mutation and must be treated as such in breeding.
Remember clarity is not standard but a" mutation" and must be treated as any other accumulative recessive mutation. The only pigments in fur are red/yellow and brown/black and the original agouti pattern is brown/black with a yellow bar and underfur.
Thank you so much RMC.
So the agouti pattern is not so much what is desired, but rather an evenness and clarity of any shade of gray etc...?
Yes?
Oohh I get so excited when I learn/figure out something new. ::gobananago::
and Peanut is a Tan :wildeyes: albeit maybe not the best, but I sure love his coat. The effect you get when you rough it up is awesome.Like a brand new carpet when you rub one way and then the other. ;D
Being the only breeder here sometimes I have to make my own misstakes to see how it's suppose to look. ::outofmymind::
I have placed the ebony Dad with a nice standard to see if maybe I can correct some in his off spring.
The beige Mom I may never use again.