Chinchilla Community Forums
Breeders => Breeding 101 => Topic started by: AnnieHank on March 02, 2011, 03:31:36 AM
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Well, my chinchilla had twins the other day, a boy and a girl I think. This is their second litter. I'm definitely not as attached as I was to the last pair, I haven't even let myself name them or take pictures (my boyfriend has done both these things though!)
A few people told me I couldn't keep a mating pair together and not have babies and they were absolutely right, I just didn't want to split up a bonded pair. So I'm wondering what my best options now would be. I'd rather not mate them again if I don't have to. I was lucky there have been no complications so far but that doesn't mean there won't be in the future and I'd rather not deal with mastitis or any of the other issues that can arise, not to mention the worry of finding good homes.
I have two large cages so I was thinking of trying to find a good home for the male kit and keeping the female kit with the mother permanently and the dad in a separate cage beside them. This way, I only have to look for one good home and I won't have any more kits. I was wondering if anyone else has had success with keeping two females and a male in this way. Would it be too traumatic to split up a bonded pair permanently though? Could you let them all have playtime together and keep an eye that he doesn't get up on them?
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You wouldn't be able to have playtime with male and females. It takes 30 seconds to mate. Even with the best supervision in the world during playtime they would possibly mate
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i think if you separated the boy and kept the girls separately, the boy would be miserable. i'm guessing he's not very old so if he lives to, say, 18, he will be miserable all this time, looking into the cage he wants to be with. chins have been known to stop eating and die over the loss of a mate.
i think you have two options
1. neutering. this is not a decision to be taken lightly. i have lost my boy after a surgery he had to have due to complications after neutering. however, i just had his sons neutered a couple of weeks ago because they were utterly miserable. i thought they'd be ok and i wouldn't have to do it - i certainly didn't want to - but i could not have them suffer all their lives. i knew it was the best choice for them even if it wasn't for me. if you decide to go down this road, make sure your vet is competent, insist on a course of antibiotics (if chinchi had this rather than just a post op injection, he would possibly be alive now), painkillers (some vets don't give them for aftercare) and keep checking for anything that looks different or not right and give your vet a call straight away - quick intervention is very important. both my boys are on a full course of antibiotics, spock even got an additional antibiotic because one of his wounds got a little inflamed. they are both doing well and they should hopefully be fully healed by next check up. they have less than four weeks to go before they can be introduced to the ladies, i cannot wait.
2. keep the boy and the dad together and find them a home with someone you trust. i did consider this option as i very much wanted to avoid the surgery, however, i could not give them away (i don't go on holiday because i don't trust anybody to take care of them!), especially not after i got this rescue girl who was in absolutely appalling condition.
i can't think of anything else. sorry, i know they are not great choices.
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I couldn't part with my grown chinchillas, I love them! Also, I doubt I'd find someone who would care for them the way my boyfriend and I do.
I really appreciate all your feedback. I'm not taking this decision lightly and I have plenty of time so I'm not in a rush. I think I need some more information. Would the males still fight if kept in a cage beside the females if one of the males was neutered? Is neutering any less risky if you have a vet you trust that has lots of experience with chinchilla neutering? would the bonded pair still be depressed at being split up if they had the kits as companions? I'd like an option that means I get to keep the kits and not ever have any more new kits!
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oh dianeah, i'm sorry that happened to you..
i would love to do my males, but thats why i won't.. its too dangerous.
jean
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thanks jean. i am very very sorry to. it's heartbreaking, every day and it will be 9 months in a week's time.
i think it's very different if your chin hasn't got a mate and especially if the mate is not right next to him where he can't see them or smell them but not cuddle up and groom etc. my chinchi was ok with just me when i spent a lot of time with him, then i had to move and i met my now husband who has a great dane and chinchi could not be in our room because of this. i also worked (i was off sick before and pretty much nocturnal) and he was very much nocturnal and hated being disturbed during the day. so we got him a friend we thought was a boy..
annie, they would fight if there are girls around even if neutered. it's either alone or neutered with a girl. i'm guessing he's separate from her now? what's he like on his own?
neutering is definitely less risky if you have a vet who has got the experience. but there's always a risk of reaction to anaesthesia, infection and hernia.
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He's eating and drinking fine at the moment. When we let him out to play, he seems his usual busy happy self. He spends alot of time at the cage wires trying to get her attention though, I think that may because she's in heat!
They still fight even if one is neutered? Damn. Looks like there's not going to be a simple answer to this!
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how long ago did she give birth? they're only in heat for 2-3 days so even if she went into heat 24 hours after birth rather than straight away, if they kits are older than 4 days, he's trying to get her attention because he wants to be with her.
i did consider housing the boys together and asked about people's experiences. the fighting's not instant and there have been people saying they had a male pair getting on perfectly fine until one killed the other. so i decided against it especially given you often don't get a warning.
i wasn't going to neuter the boys, i was convinced that i could not do it and thought they'd be ok with human attention and other chins nearby. but one of them in particular became very withdrawn and would always hide, bark if you went near him and staring at the girls constantly. he has a cuddly strawberry and he sleeps on it as if it's a chinchilla. it was heartbreaking to watch so i decided that he can either have a miserable life or i can make absolutely everything in power to prevent complications (obviously, sometimes there's nothing you can do) and have them neutered. it wasn't without hiccups, ffynn developed a seroma because he was moving too much so he went on a double dose of antibiotics straight away and spock developed a very mild infection to the incision site 10 days after surgery - i caught it early - he was put on double dose of antibiotics and an additional antibiotic as well. they're both healing and they have a checkup next tuesday, hopefully they'll get all clear then.
i shed a lot of tears over this decision, i was absolutely petrified but i did talk to both my chinchilla vets at length and decided it was the best way forward, for them. now i can't wait to put them in with the girls, it will be quite something.
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She gave birth on Sunday and I'm pretty sure she went into heat 2 days before giving birth so you're right, he just wants to be with her. I have plenty of time so I'm going to take this opportunity to fully research all my options so I can be sure I'm making the best possible decisions for them all. I'm going to put an ad up and see if there's anyone with a fixed female that wants a companion. I'm also going to interview my vet about neutering and I just found another local vet that was recommended to me by a chinchilla breeder in my area so I'll check her out too. This doesn't seem like it's going to have a nice solution though. Either way, I'm looking at either neutering, separating a bonded pair or breeding them more. I don't want to do any of these things. I really appreciate the support and advice though, thanks folks!
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you probably won't find a neutered female - this is not a routine procedure and is only done if medically necessary.
take your time. i took mine with the boys. they were over 10 months old when they were neutered, you can do it from 6 months onwards but i was petrified. i think i was completely against it until november, then i realised that ffynn wasn't just going through a phase and was truly miserable. so i started talking to the vets about it and then eventually booked them in in february.
good luck!!!! xxx
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Like Dianah I just went through having my father of all the babies neutered. We didn't take this decision lightly, we talked this over between my girlfriend and I for months, we also spoke with out Vet 20+ times in length about good and bad. We eventually decided in the best interest of Titan to get him fixed. For the most part it was pretty routine, minus a few staples falling out and having to get them redone. I agree, if they neuter, mine got pain meds for 3 days (all he seemed to need) and had a full course of antibiotics for a week 2x a day with double dose recommended by the vet. He is doing well minus the fact he has to wear a cone until tomorrow at 11am. Hes taken it in stride, we have a very good vet here in my area. Actually we have 2 different ones that are both fantastic. They have both done many neutering and have all the special equipment needed (heated tables, cooling tables, special masks, etc.) So i felt rather OK going into this. I prepared myself for the absolute worst that could happen and hoped for the best. It fell more towards the latter but not perfect. All in all, in the long run, Titan and Ebbie can live together for the rest of their lives. For what it cost me, its worth it 10x as they have provided us with much love and great babies and entertainment. We chose to keep all but one of the 5 babies(2 litters). The one girl did go to a close freind who is majorly loving on her. We didn't breed to make money or even break even. We did this for the experience and to save a pair of chins that were going to a shelter and who knows what. Now they live happy in their own bedroom of our house and enjoy the luxury of raisins and shredded wheat dreams!
Good luck with your choice, if you have any questions or anything please get in touch. I have been through what you have as well as a few others have here. We don't know all but we can try to help anyway we can.
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Thanks for your support folks.
So after considering everything, I reckon neutering would be the most favourable option. I'm still not totally there yet though. I'm going to book Hank in for a health check next week to see if he's healthy enough for the operation and I still need to interrogate my vet about her procedures, although I've heard from other breeders in my area that this particular vet is very reliable and they'd trust her with their darlings. Failing that, I'm going to let them breed. I think separation would be the least preferable option. The health check and my chat with the vet will determine whether I decide to keep the kits or rehome them. According to one local breeder, she has a waiting list so she might help me find a good home for the kits. I'll let you know how I get on. I'm still not liking these options at all.
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would breeding them be a longterm option though? even if you can find kits homes, i've heard of people who had a 24 year old chin give birth so it doesn't appear like there's a cut off point. and there may be problems, if she starts having larger litters you'll have to help out or any other problems.. it's something to think about... you may decide in three years that you've had enough or she's had enough and you'll have the same dilemma, apart from that your boy will be 3 years older - apparently it's best to neuter them before they are 3 years old, i don't know if it's because there's a chance of more complications when they're older.
well, my two boys that were neutered on the 14th of february seem to be fully healed, they're going for a check up next tuesday and hopefully it will be their last. it's not been without hiccups and i think if we didn't intervene immediately, there could have been bigger problems but i think they'll be ok now. spock's off his antibiotics completely and ffynn should be too after his check up.
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I agree, dont breed because you can, thats not what everyone here works hard to do to improve the chin population. If you have a confident Vet and the resources and time, neuter. In the long run, you will be providing him with years of happiness with his mate. Titan made it through his ordeal rather unscathed, rather i mean. All in all, looking back i am now confident we made the right decision. Having them next to each other(seperate cages) and seeing the love they are already sharing is worth the time, aggrivation, money and stress 10000x over. Be confident in your decision and most of all the Vet who performs the surgery.
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Yeah, I don't really want to keep breeding them either, what I'm saying is that I prefer to let them breed if neutering is ruled out as an option. I'm not at all sure about separating them, I don't think they'd do well. They are very bonded.
I know neutering would have the happiest long term solution, but I think it's the riskiest. Hank is 8 years old, he might well be too old anyway. I really couldn't bear to lose him.
I briefly spoke to my vet about it and it seems the main issue with neutering an older chinchilla would be if his heart is strong enough to survive the anaesthetic. My vet performs a health check before considering neutering as an option and she won't perform the operation if he's not up to standard which I really appreciate. He's been leading a healthy life, no reason to expect that will be a problem until I have him checked out. I'm going to get the health check done anyway and see where to go from there. Even if she says he's healthy enough, it doesn't mean I'm tied to any particular route.
I'm going to check it all out anyway before I rule anything out and try to keep an open mind on all my options until I have investigated them fully. I have not made a decision at all yet. The kits are barely 2 weeks old, I have loads of time to check it all out and find out what's best.
Glad to hear all your chins are recovering well from their operations though, it sounds hopeful, although I'm sure they're all younger than Hank?
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i've read that pregnancies are riskier than neutering. mind you, i've had a chin die from neutering and had two litters without deaths, that was by a hair though, fluffy had mastitis when she had the triplets so couldn't nurse, i think i got about 4 hours of sleep in the first week. she took over three weeks in, thank god. but ffynn stayed at 35g for over a week and i absolutely dreaded going in that room thinking i would find one or more of them dead.
my boys were 10 months when neutered. chinchi was over three years old and he did have a reaction to anaesthetic, this however was after the surgery to remove the puss capsule after he developed an infection - so he's been very sick for two months and putting them under repeatedly increases the risk, sadly there was no other option.
i'm sure your vet will advise you against neutering if there are any problems and then at least you'll have the info on that aspect.
just remember you need to keep him separate for 6 weeks after the surgery as he still can get her pregnant within that time, if you decide to go for it.
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I was told a month. Anyone got a concrete number on this. My boy Titan has proved he carrys more than a starter pistol so maybe a little longer wont hurt.
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i've read that people had pregnancies after six weeks but generally six weeks is enough. i guess it's possibly individual as well but i'm doing six weeks just in case. at least in your case if she gets pregnant it's not too much of a disaster. ffynn would be getting his mum and sisters pregnant ::) and spock's going in with mae who's got some many health problems it would probably kill her!
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I so dont need more Kits....read the post i have in General discussion under dehydration on page 2 to see my story. Its been a hell of a weekend.
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i know. i just meant that if an accident happened, there's no genetic tie or existing health problems. not that 'if it happens it happens!' i'll go check out news about the poor baby!
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No poor baby. Shandy is doing good. And our new friends Elise and Lucky are as well.
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So we've discussed it with our vet and my boyfriend and I have discussed it at length and we've talked it over with our priest and baker and everyone else we come into contact with!!! We've decided that neutering is the option for us. The vet will do a pre- op check on Hank before she goes ahead and if she's in any doubt, she won't do a thing. I'm still concerned that he's too old because he's 8, but the vet insists that it's routine and he'll be fine.
I'm wondering how this will work though. If I've to keep Hank away from Annie for 6 weeks, won't they get lonely? could I put buddy (male kit) in with him once he is weaned? Then Annie will have Pixie (female kit) for company too.
When Buddy is a few months older, I could get him neutered then too and all 4 could live together happily ever after?
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I collected Hank from the vet this morning after getting him neutered. I must have seemed like the craziest pet owner; I asked the vet a million questions and was such a basket case when I was leaving him there!
The operation went well and he seems good. I'm going to keep him in a cage beside the others by himself for the next few weeks but to make sure that reintroduction goes as smoothly as possible, I'll let them have supervised play time in eachothers cage each day. He's very obvious about his intentions when she's in heat so I reckon I could pull him out if he starts getting overfriendly! The only thing is that he's not going to the toilet too well at the moment but the vet gave us medicine for that so fingers crossed it won't develop into a situation. Fingers crossed for the next few days and thanks so much to y'all for all your advice.
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yay! fab! glad it went well! i kept checking the wounds twice a day - morning and evening to make sure there weren't any changes (there were so we had a few trips to the vet) - even if you think it looks insignificant, have it checked out anyway.
is he in a single level cage? he shouldn't have shelves for at least a week so he doesn't rip stitches.
i would advise against letting him play with his girl. you will not be able to pull him out in time, it takes seconds. he also needs to be alone for 7-10 days while he's healing.
i did find they did not exactly poo as normal until the day after. is it lactulose he's been given for not pooing? also, if he's on antibiotics, it's a good idea to add probiotics to his diet, you can get them from the vet if you've not got any.
i'm sending some good healing vibes in your direction!
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Thanks Dianah, we're keeping a very close eye on his wound. We've to bring him back to the vet on Tuesday for a wound check so hopefully there won't be any issues, but we'll catch it if there is. There are no high shelves in his cage so he should be okay. Tthe vet gave him a large shot of antibiotics after the op but wouldn't give me any to take home. She was adamant that he wouldn't need them. I'll be straight back to her like lightening if anything out of the ordinary occurs!
God love him, we just gave him the medicine there and some critical care and he really just wanted to be left alone. He was nipping a little bit which is really out of character for him, he must really be feeling sorry for himself. I can't wait till he's back to normal. I do feel a bit guilty for putting him through this but in the long term it's better for all of them. Poor Annie is such a reluctant mother, I don't want to put her through that again!
How are your lot getting on?
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well.. my vets changed their treatment procedures after chinchi got this massive infection after he'd been given only a post op dose of antibiotics (via injection after surgery). i talked to them at length before i had the boys neutered and we agreed that they will need a full course of antibiotics rather than just post op. they ended up being on additional antibiotic and a prolonged course at that because ffynn had a swelling and we didn't want it to turn into an abscess and one of spock's wounds showed a sign of infection.
i do believe that if chinchi had a full course of antibiotics, it would have given him a better chance. we'll never know, of course. I understand that antibiotics do upset the guts and all but a two week course should not cause any harm on a healthy chin as long as you keep providing probiotics etc. my boys were on a high dose for nearly a month and their poos didn't change at all (this was surprising to both me and the vet)
I'm of course not saying that your boy will get sick. I think it's standard procedure not to give a full course of antibiotics to chinchillas. but i think those who do get sick would have benefited from having antibiotics in their system.
does he have pain relief? a lot of vets think that a pain relief shot after surgery is all they need but it's not really the case. i was sterilised a couple of years ago and they realised (after surgery!!!) that i couldn't have the standard post surgical pain relief so my options were codeine and paracetamol (headache pills!) or morphine (but i'd have to stay in hospital overnight). so i had codeine and paracetamol as i stupidly wanted to go home and i was in a super high amount of pain for the first twelve hours or so (after all, they 'stabbed' me through my stomach twice!) and i was still in a moderate amount of pain for days after. i think the worst thing was that i was totally unprepared for the pain, i was told to expect 'mild discomfort'!
so i would imagine it's the same for them.
mine are good! we've started introductions! :)
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How are introductions going Dianah?
Vet didn't give pain relief for him, she insisted that he didn't need it and it would lower his immune system. It's been a couple of days so hopefully he's not still in pain.
We're bringing him back to the vet for a wound check in the morning. It looks fine so hopefully it is. He's still not eating much or poohing right but we're dutifully shoving the medicine and critical care in as gently as possible. It's such an awful ordeal for him though, my heart goes out to him. He's figured out all the best wriggles to avoid it and keeps hiding his head under my hand, as if he thinks we can't see him if he can't see us! I really hate this part, fingers crossed he starts eating properly soon and we can stop annoying him.
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the intros are not going as well as i had hoped! i thought spock and mae would be really easy because they were grooming faces through the cage. and they're ok, groom faces for a bit.. but then they start mounting each other and it gets a bit heated. no biting or any nastiness but i'm still not keen. especially as mae only has one back leg.
the other lot, ffynn and the three girls, there's no mounting but ffynn is rather scared of them. he's ok for a bit an then it gets all too much for him and he goes and hides!!!
it's so weird, with fluffy and chinchi, it was very definite. he wanted to kill her for the first two months, then he decided that actually he rather liked her and would like to groom her face for the next two hours. this lot are difficult! you think you've cracked it and then they mess it up! i think more playdates and patience will hopefully sort it out. at least no one's trying to hurt anybody.
aww, i hope your poor little boy starts eating soon. i wonder why he's not eating.. chinchi only stopped eating when he developed the infection, he was eating as normal after the surgery (that's one of the reasons we didn't suspect anything was wrong) and the boys never stopped eating. does he not like critical care? which critical care have you got? if you're in the us, you can get the apple & banana flavoured cc (we can't get that over here) and see if he likes that better. or you could try the fine grind cc - mae loves this yet she won't have the normal stuff.
how do you prepare it? do you syringe cc into him? i found with chinchi, he liked his made into a paste rather than liquid but it needed to be moist. he also liked it warm. mae and her fine grind cc, she likes that as a paste as well. if you syringe it, you could try giving it to him off your finger - just be careful, mae just licked it off, chinchi bit so hard into my finger it bled so he had it off a spoon after that.
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I'm sorry to hear your intros aren't going that smoothly. From what I've heard about chinchilla introductions/ reintroductions, it doesn't sound hopeless to me though, just early stages.
The vet had said to us that it was likely that he'd stop eating for a bit after surgery and that his little tummy wouldn't be right for a few days so it was expected. What I didn't expect was his reaction to the syringe feeding! When we treated him for pneumonia last year, I remember him being a little wriggly but it was bearable. It was Annie I was worried most about because she was preganant and we had to be very very careful how we held her.
The critical care we're giving him is the regular fine grind stuff. I live in Ireland so I'm not sure there's too much choice of flavours here. I just took what the vet gave us and had been feeding him herself. We mix it into a paste and try syringe it into his mouth. I swear more gets on his fur and our clothes and the carpet than in his mouth though! We've had marginal success with putting a little on our fingers and he licks it off but that only works for a ml or two.
I'm just back from the vet, we had the wound check. She said there's no infection and he's doing okay. Pooing a little but still not much. The reason his recovery is so slow is that he's quite old for the surgery (he's 8 ). The vet suggested some orange flavoured baby food which we've bought and will mix with his critical care this evening. She also gave us some pain meds for him and anaestethic cream to put on the area. I'm a bit annoyed she wouldn't give it to us initially though, that means the poor little guy's been in pain the last few days and she could have prevented that!
Ah well, this should only last a few more days and then hopefully he'll be his happy self again.
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ah, see, i completely forgot he was an older boy. well the good news is he's got pain meds now and should hopefully be more comfortable.
i live on the isle of man and i can't get the apple & banana flavour here so i'm guessing it's not available in ireland either. but if the vet thinks he's in pain (which i'm guessing must be the case if she's giving him painkillers) then i guess it's not surprising he's not too mad on eating. have you tried giving him some rolled oats? i find that they eat that even if they don't want to eat anything else.
re baby food - just be careful. he is very likely to love it - we gave some to mae when she needed to put weight on for her xray and she would not eat anything. she loved the baby food but it made her have diarrhoea, really quite bad. so i'd say, just monitor him. it takes 12-15 hours to digest food so keep an eye :) i know that people have used baby food without any trouble so hopefully that will be the case! if not, they can give you this fibreplex paste at the vets. if he does get diarrhoea, you need to act fast as they get dehydrated very quickly and i think it would be even more detrimental post surgery. (sorry, i don't want to scare you, i'm sure it will be all without problems, but just in case!)
our intros.. well, it's not bad really. it could be a lot worse! it's just confusing! i sometimes think 'ok, they're ok now!' and then five minutes later they're not.
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Haven't had to resort to the baby food yet because we've managed to get the critical care in with a bit of TLC and patience. His poohs look a bit better anyway. Even if he's still not eating properly yet, he's definitely much better than he was. Hopefully he'll start eating again soon. This is getting very old at this stage, for him and for us.
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I have an adult male, an adult female, a male kit and a female kit. The adult male is not related to any of them. He is in one cage, and Raisin and her kits are in another cage. When Bonnie and Clyde are weaned, They will all have their own cages.
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Leave the female kit with the mother, company for both then.