Chinchilla Community Forums
Chinchillas => Health => Topic started by: zukitchi on January 08, 2010, 10:33:14 PM
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I have two 13-year-old chins, Linda and her brother Chachi (neutered) that live in the same cage. Over the last couple of days I have noticed that Linda has become extremely lethargic. She pretty much just sits in a corner all day or in their secondary sleeping spot. I really think something is wrong with her. She is normally the most energetic of all my chins. Her cagemate acts normal and so does my other chin who lives in a different cage. Normally she is very difficult to get out of the cage but today she hardly put up a fight. I even offered her a little peanut butter mixed with a little honey to stimulate her but she would not even sniff it. When I put the dust bath in their cage today she did immediately run down to it and use it, but she did not stay in it very long and went back upstairs to rest in her corner for a good 5 - 10 minutes. Then she did go back down for one more quick roll for about a minute and then she went up to retire to their secondary sleeping spot. Normally, she will hog the dust bath for 20 minutes straight and won't even let her cagemate in for a turn. Her poops still look normal, and I gave her some fluids with an eyedropper today just to make sure. I think perhaps she has been spending so much time in their secondary sleeping spot to get away from her cagemate. He will spend about 1/3 - 1/2 of his time sleeping with her down there, but the rest of the time he will be in their normal, primary sleeping spot on the top floor of the 3-story cage. He is not being abusive to her in anyway, I just think she feels crummy and wants to be by herself. I do not hear any difficulty breathing, nor do I see any discharge coming from the nose or mouth. I just don't know what it could be? Should I take her to the vet? If so, can it wait until Monday, or she I see an Emergency Vet who is open on the weekend?
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I would like to add that shortly after posting this I did see her get a drink of water from her water bottle. Also, I offered her raisins and she took/ate 2, but she did so much less enthusiastically than usual, and she didn't seem to care if she got any more. Normally she would take them forever, even if she didn't want to eat them anymore, she would still have normally grabbed them and dropped them on the ground. Also, she refused a food pellet and sunflower seed that I offered her. Normally she gobbles those down. I should also mention that shortly before my 1st post I did see her eat a couple of her own poops as she was pooping them out. In addition, I put a little bit of high-fiber cereal (All Bran + Uncle Sam mixture) next to her and she has eaten a little bit of that.
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I'm not a terribly experienced chinchilla owner, but heres my two cents based on my little bit of personal experience and stuff that i've read. Take it with a grain of salt.
You may want to separate her from her cagemate so that you can carefully monitor her normal pellet food, hay and water intake as well as her droppings and urination. Also because, if she is sick, you do not want it to spread to the other chinchilla. I would watch her very carefully during the next couple of days and if she does not eat much, or bounce back, take her to the vet on Monday. Obviously if her condition worsens or she doesn't eat at all in the next day, you'll want to call an emergency vet for recommendations. If there doesn't seem to be anything externally wrong they might need to do an X-ray. My other advice is to lay off the treats.. from your post i noticed you offered her peanut butter and honey, 2 raisins, sunflower seeds and cereal of which she ate the raisins and cereal. Was this all in the same day? That's a lot of treats. Typically everyone warns against giving more than 1-3 raisins per week. I've read in many places not to give chinchillas nuts or seeds AT ALL. I've never even heard of anyone giving their chinchilla peanut butter but i can't imagine it is anything but terrible for them.
I certainly hope it is nothing serious and that Linda will be better soon. Of course it's important to take all behavior changes seriously. I just lost my little Hermes to complications from surgery after having a bladder stone removed. The earliest symptom that I caught was just the slightest bit of lethargy. He was still active and strong, just not quite as active. By the time he was acting strange enough to warrant a justification for an X-ray (about a week later), he had a single but HUGE bladder stone that must have hurt a lot. In brighter news, I took Apollo to the vet today because I thought he was less active and eating less, but it turns out that he's just a weirdo. ::) There doesn't seem to be anything wrong, including in the X-ray.
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Please don't think that I normally give all those treats in one day! I was just testing to see what kind of appetite she had, if any, given her situation. I am afraid she isn't eating much, and it seems to be the case since she doesn't really even want treats. I did see her urinate tonight, so that is somewhat promising, I suppose. She also nibbled on a Timothy Hay Cube a little bit. She almost seems to go through short spurts where she will perk up for 5 or 10 minutes and then go back to being lethargic. I gave her a towel to lay on which she seems to appreciate, and I am able to monitor the poops she makes on the towel. I will keep monitoring her and if she's no better by tomorrow evening, it's off to the vets we go! I read on another thread about chinchillas in neighboring cages getting impregnated if the cages are less than 3 inches apart. I think sometimes Bowser's cage has been less than 3 inches from Linda's (but no less than 2 in.) and neither of them have been spayed/neutered. Although their levels don't line up, so I think it would be incredibly difficult for him to impregnate her like that. But I notice she's going down to her crotch area a LOT, although it looks like she's just pulling out/eating poops. I'm kinda scared to go to bed tonight, but it's already 3 AM. I just don't want to wake up to find her dead or on death's door like my poor little Odysseus in '03 when he had pneumonia. Also, I am not sure how this could be a contagious illness, the chins have not been exposed to anything that they could catch it from. It's not like they recently came from a pet store or breeder or even visited an animal hospital. So how could they catch a contagious condition that I'd have to worry about them passing on to others? When one of them was sick a few years back, a vet brought up that same point to me. I don't know if that's true, but I guess you never know.
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Since her only symptom is the lethargy we can only guess at the cause. Since chinchillas mask their symptoms it could be anything at this point and you don't want to wait until the next symptom presents itself. My advice is to take her to a vet. 13 is getting up in age for a chinchilla so you will want the vet to listen to her heart and lungs for sure.
If they are not fighting I wouldn't separate them. Since they have been together for 13 years you could cause a lot of other issues with either or both due to depression.
Please keep us posted on how she does.
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Ok, I think it must be constipation now. When I said her poops were normal last night, the ones I examined were on the small-side of normal. After seeing the poops she made over the night, they are probably 75% very small and like 25% on the small side of normal. Plus they are much dryer than usual and a lighter shade of color and usual. Like they are more of a tan/yellow-brown than a dark chocolate-brown. Perhaps this is why she keeps pulling them out with her teeth, because she has trouble pushing them out due to their dryness. Also, the fur around her ano-genital area shows signs that it had been wet from her going down there a lot. Are there any remedies I can start her on at home while a research for an experienced chin-vet? Also, I have some extra metoclopramide from when a guinea pig was ill. It is supposed to help with gut motility. Do you think I should give her some? By the way, I live in the Tampa Bay area of FL (New Port Richey, to be exact), so if anyone reading this knows of a good vet to take her to, please let me know. Thank you!
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I haven't had any experience with that medication myself but upon doing reasearch I found this site:
http://www.davidson-chinchillas.co.uk/pages/prevention___treatment_of_bloat_in_chinchillas.php
which mentions it. You might find the article helpful.
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So I took Linda to the emergency vet today. Before going, I called and asked if the doctor on duty took chinchillas. They told me that she did, but the one who comes in at 6:00 PM does not, so I figured I better take her to be safe. The doctor listed to her breathing and heart which were normal. She even inspected all of her teeth to check for malocclusion and spurring, and said the teeth were fine. After seeing the poops, (both the samples I brought and what Linda produced in the office), the doctor said that she is probably just dehydrated. She just recommended fresh pineapple and/or papaya, or the juices of these fruits fed with a dropper if Linda does not willingly eat them whole. She said these fruits will help increase pepsin levels. She also wanted me to make sure she drinks plenty of fluids, even if that means I have to feed her with a dropper myself. The doctor also mentioned that sometimes they get hairballs (which I never heard of in chins, but okay...), and these fluids/fruits will help with that. I guess I kind of still feel uneasy about this whole thing. I Googled the vet I saw when I got home, and found out that she had been arrested in '04 or '05 for abusing her mentally disabled brother. She also has a negative reputation in the greyhound/whippet breeding community and many dogs have apparently died under her care due to poor conditions. So I'm not really sure what else to do at this point. :-\
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What she recommended is sound advice. Chinchillas can get hairballs. Usually you see it more in fur biters but any chinchilla that grooms himself can ingest some of that hair.
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Well, Linda seems to have a little more interest in her normal foods and has a bit more energy. Poops are still tiny and dry, and she still trys to pull them out on her own. Guess we'll see how she does tomorrow. I hope things are starting to move along.
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Good luck to Linda!
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Yes good luck and keep us posted, we worry too!
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I am pleased to report that even her droppings have improved now. They are darker, moister, and larger. Not yet completely normal, but they are well on their way. I am so relieved. ::nod::
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I am glad to hear that things sound to be getting back to normal...I was told though...if you feel your chin is feeling under the weather...one should cut the treats. And offer them their hay and pellets. Though what the vet suggested seemed to work. Which makes sense...it being fruits is what was told to be given.
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::think:: Being lethargic is always a big red flag. IT is a warning that something is not right and needs to be checked out. Any change from the norm is a red flag ... some are just bigger than others. Change in the intake of food or water and activity (or lack of it) are the big flags that can often looked over (temporarily) with many other pets, but not chinchillas. Most chins are almost gone before they let us see the signs of illness ... unless we are constantly vigilant.
The peanutbutter and honey kinda threw me ... :o ... nuts contain a natural oil that can not be properly digested by chinchillas and will, over time, cause a fatty liver to develop, please do not give your chin nuts of any kind ... fatty livers kill. Personally, the ONLY time I will suggest any nut is when a chin is impacted or blocked and even then, I suggest it as a last ditch effort. I have found one or two almonds will usually un-stop a chin when nothing else seems to work.
Being impacted can be from dehydration (the major cause) and from fur. (I have not used the pinapple before, but will try it ... thanks for the 'heads up' on that one.) I use fresh and/or dried papaya as a once or twice weekly treat, which seems to help keep things moving and it is rich in vitamins. I also add a little green papaya enzyme in the supplement.
For fur blockage, Petramalt, found in the cat and dog section of the pet store, also works wonders for unblocking or preventing blockage. I use it (about the size of a small pea) once a month, as a preventative. It is formulated especially to keep fur from blocking the intestines of cats, but is also safe for chinchillas. It comes in a tube.
There's lots of pros and cons concerning raisins and cranraisins. I have found, over the years, given sparingly, they do not to have an ill effect on chins (unless the chin is diabetic). When I say sparingly ... keep in mind: in proportion to size {of us to a chinchilla} one raisin is equal to the size of a small whole cake for two. Of course, there are much more healthy treats that can be offered ... papaya {fresh or dried} and rose hips are two of the best I have found. Papaya can be purchased fresh and/or dried. Rose hips can be purchased dried or can be dried from your own garden IF you do not use any chemicals on your roses as they grow. Both can be dried naturally or in a dehydrator or the oven ... but, NOT in the microwave.
I should also mention that shortly before my 1st post I did see her eat a couple of her own poops as she was pooping them out.
This is not unusual ... chins do not fully digest their food the first time around and will often process it a second time ... much like cows chewing their cud. It may not sound very appetizing, but in lean times in the wild, it often provides the nutrition needed to survive. On the other hand :-\ it is also a way of passing parasites from one chin to another. I think chins often have poo fights from one cage to another every night (each morning the herd room looks like it :D ) Thus one of the reasons for moving a sick chin to a separate room. (I've also had a few thrown at me when I'm not moving fast enough to suit the chins at feeding time.) rofl
As a general rule, when one chin becomes ill, I will usually separate it into another room from all the other chins ... until I am sure it is well ... BUT ... when there are two chins in the same cage, especially when the two chins have been together for that many years, I move them both to a separate room and allow them to remain in the same cage. Reasons: 1. If it is contagious, by the time it is noticed, it is probably already spread to the cagemate and 2. because chins are very affectionate and bonded. 3. The added love, comfort and affection the cagemate provides can often be the difference in one getting well or not. 4. A pair that has been together that long ... if one dies, often the other (even if it is not infected) will just give up and die by refusing to eat or drink. I have seen this happen myself in my own herd with long-term partners (This is a downfall in pair breeding). Chinchillas can live to be in their late teens and low to mid twenties on rare occasions ... in human time that would be 80 to 90 years. I have seen human couples do the same, they just seem to loose the will to live when the other one passes. Chins have all the emotions humans have and will often react the same.
Constipation and/or diarrhea to humans brings on the feelings of discomfort, bloating and pain, but is not usually life threatening and can be corrected fairly easy.
Constipation in a chinchilla is that and more ... it can be the beginning of the end. A chinchilla's digestive system MUST work continually and properly or a chinchilla will probably "go down" (die) rather quickly. Intestinal problems in a chinchilla tend to have the "snowball" effect. If not corrected almost immediately, it will add more problems to the situation. Example: Dirrhea depletes the body fluids, weakening the chin and causing the feces to become dry and smaller, often becoming impacted. Once impacted/blocked the food eaten by the chin fills the tummy and has no where to go ... the tummy stays full, telling the brain it is not hungry ... leading to eventual self starvation.
I am pleased to report that even her droppings have improved now. They are darker, moister, and larger. Not yet completely normal, but they are well on their way. I am so relieved. ::nod::
::clapp:: Sounds like your Linda is headed in the right direction! Keep a close eye on her!
I am glad to hear that things sound to be getting back to normal...I was told though...if you feel your chin is feeling under the weather...one should cut the treats. And offer them their hay and pellets. Though what the vet suggested seemed to work. Which makes sense...it being fruits is what was told to be given.
"Cutting the treats" depends on what the treats are and what the illness is. Cutting the treats and regular pellets is often done when a chin is feverish and/or showing signs of not digesting the food properly (green feces) or in the beginning signs of constipation or diarrhea. The chin is given strictly water and hay in an attempt to cleans the system with "all natural" food (hay), that has no additives. Treats can be any food that is given as a special thing (usually hand fed) rather than what is in it's regular pellet food. Some treats are good and other are not so good. A good treat adds needed vitamins, nutrients and/or fiber. Bad treats are "empty calories" ... the same as with humans. ::nod::
Please keep us posted on Linda's condition.
::wave:: Jo Ann
Sorry this was so "long-winded" I haven't been on very much lately and am trying to play 'catch up' with my computer time. :blush2:
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... Also, I am not sure how this could be a contagious illness, the chins have not been exposed to anything that they could catch it from. It's not like they recently came from a pet store or breeder or even visited an animal hospital. So how could they catch a contagious condition that I'd have to worry about them passing on to others? When one of them was sick a few years back, a vet brought up that same point to me. I don't know if that's true, but I guess you never know.
Never say never or impossible ... there are to many variables ... take for instant the common house fly ... it can and will often be a carrier of potential transmission of pathogens (viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and nematodes) associated with the fly. Pathogenic organisms are picked up by flies from garbage, sewage and other sources of filth, and then transferred on their mouthparts, through their vomitus, feces and contaminated external body parts to human and animal food. {Such as the fly poop deposited on the wood frame you mentioned she likes to chew on on occasions.} Serious health problems can develop, especially if there are outdoor food markets, hospitals, or slaughter houses nearby. Among the pathogens commonly transmitted by house flies are Salmonella, Shigella, Campylobacter, Escherichia, Enterococcus, Chlamydia, and many other species that cause illness. These flies are most commonly linked to outbreaks of diarrhea and shigellosis, but also are implicated in transmission of food poisoning, typhoid fever, dysentery, tuberculosis, anthrax, ophthalmia, and parasitic worms. ::scaredspeachless::
:o Other things can be brought in your home on the bottom of your shoes and clothing. Some parasites can live 600 days in the soil if the temperature does not go under freezing during this time period.
??? Ringworm and feline distemper is easily passed from animal or human via clothing or minor contact with an infected animal OR even the ground/surface they have recently walked over.
::) Are you still as certain that your chin could not have a a contagious illness?
::wave:: Jo Ann
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::) Are you still as certain that your chin could not have a a contagious illness?
Well, it's been a good week now since she first became symptomatic. I never separated her cagemate from her, nor did I move my other chin's cage out of the same room, so if it is contagious, it's sure taking it's sweet time. Not sure if you saw the other board with my updates on her. Her droppings are completely normal as far as color, moisture and texture go. They are probably on the small side of normal in size, but that might just be normal for her. They have doubled in size from when she was at her worst, but average to be 1/2 to 3/4 of the size of my two healthy chin's droppings. I am still giving her the papaya/pineapple treatment, but now only doing it once a day instead of twice. She picks at her timothy hay throughout the day, but seems to eat her pellets less than she used to. Although perhaps this is because she is more full due to the unlimited supply of timothy hay (I used to only feed it to them in the evening) and the pineapple/papaya feedings. Her energy level is not what it used to be prior to all of this, but she is much better than when she was at her worst. The biggest changes are the fact that she doesn't run in her wheel anymore and she doesn't dash around the cage, bouncing off the walls. But if I let her run around the bathroom to play she will jump on and off of the hamper which is 2 feet off the ground and maybe after 20 minutes she'll start to do little wall jumps. My biggest concern though is her lack of chewing. When she went to the vet on Saturday the vet did not see any malocclusion or spurring when she put that little scope in her mouth to look at her teeth, however, an xray was NOT done, so we don't know about her roots. But I bought some new wood chews, both soft and hard wood, and she won't touch them. Normally she'd devour them within hours. Yesterday I got some pumice stone chews and she did nibble on those a little bit, but not like she would have in the past. She does still enjoy her timothy cubes, and gets excited for dust baths.
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::silly:: Glad to hear she is doing much better. :::grins:: I've been slower at getting to different things on the computer for the last two months ... I usually spend 6 to 8 hours a day on the computer ... I have not spent that much time, total, in the last 7 weeks ... Sorry, I didn't read the other post until after I had already posted on this one. :blush2:
Hint: {Sometimes it's best to try to keep posts on the same chin all together, that way it is not as confusing and all comments/help/responces are all in the same place for those reading them. :) }
My main reason for the question: " ::) Are you still as certain that your chin could not have a contagious illness?" was due to the statement made by you: ... the chins have not been exposed to anything that they could catch it from ... It's not like they recently came from a pet store or breeder or even visited an animal hospital. So how could they catch a contagious condition that I'd have to worry about them passing on to others? ... a vet brought up that same point to me.
As you become a little more use to my posts, you will see not to take them aimed at you personally. That I will often take a "blanket statement" or a general question (like yours) and comment on it in a "here are the reasons you might want to consider the possibility". (If you took it personally, I do apologize, it was not meant that way. My intent on my posts are always to try to help all chinchillas, and try not to hurt anyone's feelings.) My answers are directed to everyone ... not just the one posting the particular thread or a post within the thread. ... Check at the top and see how many times each thread you read has been see by others, 107 on this one alone. Others are often looking for the same answer or have that same question in mind, but be to shy to ask/post.
Or, on the other hand, one might take the statement you made to mean that there is no other way for a chin to get sick, other than by being somewhere other than in your home, as being the absolute truth, especially since you state a vet posed that question to you, as one that would/might make new chin owners be less aware/deligent about their chin's possibility of being exposed to things that might affect it's health. All our homes, regardless of how clean they are, do have germs, parasites and such entering the home every day.
:) Please, do not take any of my responses in a personal way, it was just to make others/newbies/all who do not already know, aware there are things in the home, or that can be brought into the home, in the most innocent of ways, that can be contagious or make our little ones sick, that can pass germs, parasites and cotangents on to a chinchilla from the outside of the home on a daily basis. :)
::howdythere:: Jo Ann
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Oh, I didn't take it personally or as being mean. I didn't mean to come across as sarcastic in my reply if that's what you thought. I just meant that after all this time, if it was a contagious condition, the other chins would have been showing symptoms by now, and they're doing great (except now poor Bowser has a cut on his hand - when I was cleaning I temporarily pushed their cages closer together than usual. Bowser took this opportunity to try to interact with the other chins and Chachi was not going to have it, so he chomped into Bowser's paw pad on his left hand. Bones appear intact and no fingers missing, just a little blood at first and some skin missing, but a scab is already forming. Cleaning it a couple times a day and applying antibiotic ointment. No point to bandage it because he will just eat the band-aid off.)