Chinchilla Community Forums
Breeders => New Births => Topic started by: QTPie61282 on April 08, 2007, 08:25:06 PM
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My Kiwi i think is going to have babies anytime within the next two weeks. I have been weighing her everyday and she is gaining weight each day at least 10-15 grams a day. Have any of you noticed an average amount of weight females gain in the last few weeks of their pregnancy?
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Usually over the last month is when you'll find they gain the most weight. I haven't broken it down into a daily/weekly figure though. Hopefully someone else on here might be able to help you with that :)
Let us know when she has the babies!
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Ive been really good about weighing her everyday and she has significantly gained about 20-30 grams each day. She is technically due on Sunday. So I will let you know if anything comes. Here are her weights over the past week.
March 31st Saturday = 784.7 grm, Sunday 1st = 798.4 grm, Wednesday 4th = 816.5 grm, Friday 6th = 830 grm,
Saturday 7th = 835 grm, Sunday 8th = 848 grm, Monday 9th = 848 grm. I havent weighed her yet today though,
so I will keep you guys posted.
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::silly::The due dates for chinchillas are much like the due dates for human babies ... they come when they are good and ready ... ::) ... 111 days is only the average ... they can come 103 to 122 days and still be full term and healthy.
If they come under 100 days, it is usually a preemie and problems can arise, (if you have the correct date) if not then, usually within the first year. I never let a preemie be adopted until after it is a year old, if then.
Weight gain depends on several things ... the mom's general health and size, the number of kits and what she is being fed, including supplements. And let's not forget the amount of activity plays in the factors there also.
We had one lady with her chin ... it was putting on a huge amount of weight ... we had guesses on the number of kits and the due date. From the looks of her and her weight, most of us thought she was going to have at least 4 or even more .... she looked like she was ready to explode ... she only had one kit, weighing 84 grams. :o At that size, it looked like it had been delivered and hiding somewhere for a week. ::) Tough delivery on mom because of her size.
The best things to watch for near the end are:
1) Amount of food eaten.
2) Amount of water intake will usually increase by 30 to 50% during the last 24 to 36 hours.
3) Flattening out on the bottom of the cage ... rapid and/or shallow breathing.
4) What looks like "Stretching Exercises".
5) Constantly cleaning herself.
6) Increased attention by the males in the other cages and/or by her mate.
7) And last but not least ... those little squeaking noises that were not there before. :D
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Thanks Jo Ann. It will be 111 days this Sunday. I figured she could have them early which is why I prepared ahead of time but her last litter came on her 111th day to the T.
So its hard to say. Last I mentioned was her weight on Monday the 9th which was 848 grams. Her weight on Tuesday the 10th was a whopping 871 grams. Weight on Wedneday was 875 grams, and on thursday was the same 875 grams.
I have yet to weight her today.
Ive never had this happen, but since you mentioned it I figured I would ask to prepare myself incase it ever happens to me.
What kind of supplements can you give the kits? I hear things about Goats milk and I use a milk replacement I get at the hospital I work at that I used once.
What else do you know of?
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::silly::Goats' milk is preferred by many ... there was a major breeder at the Nationals that brought 2 of a litter of 4 kits born 2 days earlier ... he fixed up a bottle with goat's milk and they seemed to be doing great!
Kitten and/or puppy formula is also good, I just try to add a little powdered alfalfa to it (I have a great blender.)
Before all this powdered stuff came out and canned goat's milk, many used canned milk, a little bit of molasses and a tiny bit of mashed, steam-cooked potato or rice.
When the baby cereals came out, they were the rage, mixed with ground chinchilla pellets and canned milk or whole milk with a little molasses.
When push comes to shove, you can always find something that is acceptable for a short period of time.
Always keep in mind ... the first 24 hours it is especially important that the kit gets nourishment from momma, if at all possible ... the first 24 hours, it is not milk, but collostrum she gives them. This fluid is used to flush the kits' system of the fluids it lived in, during the incubation period.
Kits, just like human babies, will often loose weight before it gains weight, or see-saw for the first 2 or 3 days.
BUT, IF the kit's weight continues downward instead of fluctuating or gaining, most likely mom's milk is not comming in as it should, or is not rich enough for the kits. When this happens, it is important to supplement. As crazy as it may sound ... you supplement the largest kits, keeping their tummies full, so that the weakest can get mom's milk, which is natural, and the best for them to have a chance to live. At least, that is my opinion and seems to work best for me and my little ones.
If a mom rejects/abandons a kit, it's in real trouble and needs to be hand fed. If you want to see some short videos on that, it's on my second website at: http://www.geocities.com/jobernstein1949/ under First Signs of Trouble
::howdythere::
Jo Ann
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Thanks for the advice.
Hopefully I wont need it anytime soon though.
I know the first 24 hours are very important. I think even the first full week is very important and can still lose kits within that time frame. In dogs and cats i think that the first two weeks on mothers milk is when they get colostrum. I learned all about it in school. They branded it in our brains.
The colustrum is where the babies get their maternal antibodies. This wears off after about 4-6 weeks (in dogs and cats) and thats why we have to vaccinate starting at that age.
I dont know how long it takes for it to wear off in kits because we dont need to vaccinate them and they usually start eating pellets fairly soon while still nursing.
But thanks for the advice and suggestions on the supplement. I hope she has a good litter. She had 3 kits in her last one. I dont know if it will be that many this time. She doesnt look as large as she did last time.
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Update on Kiwi. I was sitting watching her today and she was streching and laying on her side and seemed uncomfortable and was nesting and what not. So any day now Im assuming. Probably early in the morning like her last litter. I went in her room at like 9 am and she was just cleaning them off.
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Congrats, so what and how many did she have?
Pics please.
Oh and I find my dames stop gaining a few days to a week before delivery.
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oh she dodnt have them yet. but hopefully this weekend. good to know ill keep checking her weight. i weigh her every night
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Kiwi was laying on her side tonight and I actually saw a baby move inside of her. It was like a punch to the side of her abdomen. And not only that, but I saw it twice!!! Any day now! ::silly:: ;) ::silly::
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So when I said anyday now, back on April 22. I was wrong. Its May 4th almost 5th and still no babies. She weighs 836.3grams today. She had a litter on sunday last time so maybe this sunday? Who knows, Ive said that every Sunday now for the past 2 weeks.
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::silly::How is Kiwi today?
Generally, if you rest your female daily in your lap, one hand palms up under her, finger tips close to her tail, the first time you feel a movement, it is usually two weeks left before the kits are delivered, if she is going to have 2 or 3. If there is only one kit, it may come in sooner than the two weeks. If there are 3, 4 or more kits, it can be 3 weeks before they are delivered.
With you "seeing the kits move" on April 22, two weeks ago, I would think they would be here very soon.
Are you still seeing the kits move? Have you felt the kits move in the last few days? (Never poke around, just let her rest on your hand in your lap and give her a treat to keep her still a little longer, so that you can feel them moving.)
If they are not delivered in the next 24 to 36 hours, you might want to give the vet a call and see what they think.
Do you have a nursing kit available just in-case you have to help supplement them?
Keep us posted!
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Thanks for your concern Jo Ann. It worries me a bit.
When I said that April 15th was the 111th day, that meant that it was 111 days since her last litter was born, I was counting incase the male got to her before I did that day. But it definitely wasnt a breed back since Im still waiting for them.
I can still see the babies moving, more than ever now. I even video taped it on my phone.
I can still feel them too, at the base of her tail, near her rear. I havent poked around, I know how bad this can be. i gently rest my hand there when shes laying down.
It looks like she has an inner tube on each side of her belly, when she lays down the sides are just buldging out from her.
So if I noticed the babies move on the 22nd, it has been 2 weeks and 1 day exactly since then. She weighed 777grams that day, and yesterday she weighed 847.6 grams.
She looks so uncomfortable. I bought a small kitten bed for her to lay in, and she hasnt gotten out of it unless I come and open the door. I had to push her food bowl and her hay next to the bed so she could eat.
I keep saying shes on bed rest. rofl But I just want her to be ok, and the babies to be healthy.
I dont want anything to happen to her. Thats why I have been so worried, I know they normally dont need help but I cant help but think, What if she needs a Section?
Have you ever seen or heard of Chins getting C Sections?
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::silly::Has she been showing any signs of labor at all? Labored or shallow breathing? Stretching, pushing or pulling while holding on to something? How has her mate been to her and around her? Attentive or aggressive? Big increase in water intake? (This usually happens the last 24 to 36 hours before the kits are born.) She will usually start cleaning her self frequently that last 24 hours. Only on the first litter can you count on the elongated teats.
I do know of a couple that have had C-sections. If the vet is good, and familiar with chinchillas, and, hopefully, preformed the surgery before, it should be OK ... but that will mean you will have to do the supplementing ... hope you are a stay-at-home-mom. Or that you have another female that is just about ready to wean her kits ... preferably a couple of them that will accept any kits ... from your description, I think you are in for a big litter.
With her earlier litter, how many kits in each? How old is she? What is her normal non-pregnant weight?
When did you put her mate back in with her? (How old were the kits when you put him back in with her?)
Sounds like she may have gotten pregnant not during the "in season" right after the kits, but the following "in season". If this is the case, she could deliver any time in the next 12 days ... depending on the number of kits and how long they choose refuse to make their appearance. ::)
If you would like to see what a chin carrying quads looks like, check out:
Chinchilla Community Forums > Breeders > Breeding 101 > Topic: Chinchilla in Labor!
You have, I think, the type of problem that I refer to as 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other ... either way, it can get touchy.
1) She could be having a large litter of normal size kits and will need help with supplementing ... no easy feat. But, if that is the case, you will want to make sure you are right there when she is delivering ... she could tire to much to be able to clean them or they could come to quickly for her to attend each one. Read: "Giget & Her Quads" at: http://www.luvnchins.com/GigetKitsDay1.html
2) She could have kits that are to big to deliver naturally ... needing a C-section ... she would be put on antibiotics most likely, (read "Don't let the Cure Kill Your Chinchilla" at: http://www.geocities.com/jobernstein1949/) and again supplementing, but, with the additional problem of her not being able to care for the kits at all. Daddy is often good with cleaning and cuddling with the kits, but you have to feed them all.
Either way ... If you have other moms with kits at this time ... and they are close to being weaned or are a little past time for weaning, but you have not removed the kits ... let them stay with their moms, so she will continue to produce milk ... the new kits may need foster moms that are still producing milk. You can also wean kits at 5 weeks if you have newborns that need the milk ... as long as the 5 week kits are a healthy weight and eating solids. I do not wean early at any other time or for any other reason, unless it is for the health of the mom.
Keep us posted!
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Her last litter she had 3 babies.
I put her and the kits back in with dad when they were about 4-5 weeks old, when they couldnt fit through his cage wire anymore. Im not sure of her non pregnant weight. i havent weighed her for a few years, when she was a normal size. Shes not a very large chin, if I had to guess, maybe around 550 to 600g. her mate is about 515grams and shes just a bit bigger than him.
She is 5 years old I believe. I forgot the exact date, Ill have to dig through my papers.
Around the 15th she was laying on her side a lot and drinking alot, doing stretches. That was why I thought it would happen back then, but its 3 weeks since that date, and 2 weeks since I first saw a baby move.
Today she started getting antsy. Walking around the small cage a lot, (i have a divider I put in the cage to separate the male and female so it makes it smaller) and she acts like she wants to jump to one of the higher perches, but never tries to. everytime I open the door she comes over to me and really tries to get out., today was the first time i noticed this behavior.
I put my hand up so she doesnt jump the 5 inches shes off the floor, and she scratches at my hand with her front paw as if she was digging to get through.
The babies are still moving, a lot might I add.
Shes still eating well, gaining weight well, and drinking water. Im not to sure if its more than usual, because for 2 weeks shes been drinking a bit more than usual. She eats her hay nicely.
I took pictures of her and recorded some of the babies kicking.
I cant right now, but I will post them tomorrow so you can see her.
I have no female right now thats nursing. One of my other females wont be due until June.
I can definitely supplement if it comes down to it.
I work at a vets office as a nurse so I have good access to supplements, and the exotic doctor I go to is great. I dont know if shes ever performed a C section though. I would have to ask her.
I really dont want it to come down to that. It really makes me nervous with these guys and anesthesia.
She weighed 850.4grams today, a gain of about 3 grams since yesterday.
I will keep you posted.
Thanks for all your help
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::silly::It is good her mate is smaller than her ... many make the mistake of putting a male that is larger than the female, then all to many times, the mom has to deliver kits that are to big for her to handle.
Her last litter she had 3 babies.
The the odds of her having a large (4 or 5) litter, is not out of question, and is actually more likely.
I put her and the kits back in with dad when they were about 4-5 weeks old, when they couldnt fit through his cage wire anymore.
Just in time for her second "in season" after the kits are born. :D I've done that few times myself.
... i have a divider I put in the cage to separate the male and female so it makes it smaller ...
Unless it is a solid divider, rather than just wire ... he might as well be in an open area with her. Chinchillas have been known to mate through cage wires.
... she acts like she wants to jump to one of the higher perches ...
Perches often allow the mom to "escape" from the kits ... it is best to have nothing in her cage, other than a feeding bowl and a water bottle. If "abandon", even for a little while, a kit can chill and/or starve.
Huts are not acceptable unless it goes from the top of the cage to the bottom. Kits usually climb to the top of the cage within the first 24 to 48 hours after birth. They can climb up, but not down, so when they get to the top of the cage, they just turn loose and fall to the bottom and can hit anything as they come down ... for this reason, I always suggest a whelping cage that is no taller than 15" with good padding at the bottom.
it makes it smaller) and she acts like she wants to jump to one of the higher perches, but never tries to. everytime I open the door she comes over to me and really tries to get out., today was the first time i noticed this behavior.
I put my hand up so she doesnt jump the 5 inches shes off the floor, and she scratches at my hand with her front paw as if she was digging to get through ...
"Antsy" is a good description ... the kits are getting bigger - pushing outward, and the cage smaller - closing in on her. You might want to let her out to play ... just watch her closely ... she's stressed enough without getting claustrophobia. ::nod:: She sounds like it is any day hour now. rofl
Glad to hear she is still eating, drinking and pooping normally.
I can definitely supplement if it comes down to it.
I work at a vets office as a nurse so I have good access to supplements, and the exotic doctor I go to is great.
That's great! But now I feel a little embarrassed, going over things like you are having your first litter. :blush2:
But it is always good to put the information out there ... many newbies will probably read this. :)
It really makes me nervous with these guys and anesthesia.
I know what you mean there ... they are so delicate ... just a little to much can keep them from ever waking.
Keep us posted!
I'm always available for moral support, also. :::grins::
My phone number is on my website at the bottom of my booklet.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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So I got home from work today and still no babies. I even check on her during my lunch hour.
I took the perches out. She cant reach them right now so theres no point in having them in there. You are so right, i thought about letting her out for a little bit to let her run around. Maybe thats what she needs.
I am washing her bed today to make it cleaner, she peed on it a few times.
Even though this isnt my first litter, it still helps to hear things in repetition. Sometimes I forgot certain facts or different ways to handle something. So dont hesitate to say what your thinking! Im still learning too, so I can always use the pep talks.
Im going to call my exotic vet tomorrow evening if I dont see anything coming before then. It seems like she should have had them by now. but you said if her litter is larger, than it might take a while longer. So thats what Im hoping for. I was nervous that the babies would be too big for her to deliver. Even though the male is smaller than her, it still made me nervous when I can feel them moving so much, but nothign coming out! The thought crossed my mind, what if they cant fit?
So Im hoping for a large litter to ease my mind about the long wait.
The divider is not solid, but more of a real thick metal grid. Kinda like the ones you put on a grill. I can take a picture of it.
Im having breeding runs made for me too, so that will help in the future.
She is Very Antsy. Ill let her run around.
Im going to post some of the recent pictures of her and her large self. Ill weigh her tonight too and let you know how much shes gained since yesterday.
I just dont want to resort to C Section. I think shell be ok, its just the longer the wait, the more nervous I get.
Pardon the way her fur looks. I anticipated a birth a few weeks ago, so she hasnt had on in a long while. I dont want to risk it right now.
You can see the grid in the background in some of the pictures.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/pregkiwi9.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/pregkiwi8.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/pregkiwi7.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/pregkiwi6.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/pregkiwi5.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/pregkiwi3.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/pregkiwi2.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/pregkiwi.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/coconutlonely.jpg)
Theres a pic of Coconut, her mate. All he does since I separated them is sit on that high perch and sleep and watch her. Comes down to eat and drink and thats it.
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Wow! That is one pregnant chinchilla ::nod:: She definitely has that end of pregnancy look, too...the one that says "I just want these babies out!" I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for babies in the next day or so.
Don't stress TOO much about it though, if your chin mom isn't acting like she is in distress...nature has a way of working things out in its own time...just when you think you're going to go crazy from the anxiety/anticipation...BABIES!!! :::grins::
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Thanks Abby :::grins:: I just need you guys to calm me down. I just get nervous and dont want anything to happen to her. Im really hoping there are no still borns or anything either in there. I saw someone really kicking tonight, almost could see a fist punching through her abdomen wall.
She gained more weight since last night. Last night she was 850.4 and tonight she was 864.6 grams. Since I started weighing her on the 15th of April, a Sunday, she has gained 127.6 grams in a matter of 3 weeks.
I let her get some exercise tonight, she seemed to love it and would lay down every now and then to rest and thats when I had a good chance to see the babies kick.
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::silly::Hi Jen,
She didn't look that big until I got to the last picture of her, just above her mate, Coconut ... poor baby. I know she is in misery! Definite 2, probably 3, and a good chance of 4+, depending on the kits' weights and sizes.
I found the URL to Liberty, the one I posted that had quads. I was able to catch her at the "2 weeks to go", the flatten out and panting, the stretch and the final arch and hard labor push stages. They are at: http://www.chinchillaclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,153.0.html
Staying calm is a definite must ... she can sense your stress and it can make her stress out.
I am sure she appreciated the exercise ... that will help her keep her muscles toned for an easier delivery also. I have a few that will even want to run on their wheel until the last 2 weeks. Those muscles need to stay in shape to help push the little ones out.
That divider wire will not stop him from getting her, if she is willing. You also do not want the daddy to be able to get at the kits and take out his frustrations on them. It is rare, but sometimes happens.
She should be OK to deliver normally, but, if she stays in labor to long and/or you see any blood without seeing a kit within a few minutes ... get her to the vet a.s.a.p.
Sometimes it is not only size, but how the kit is being presented ... breach births can be as bad as a kit that is to large. I'm not trying to throw you in a panic, but just to remind you of what you have to be prepaired for just encase.
Kits should almost "pop" out, once you see the head crown, much like puppies and kittens. If it does not and she is continuing to strain, with no success, you may have to help her out. A constant gentle tug usually does the job ... if this does not work, you will probably have to pull hard enough that that kit will not make it, but you will possibly be saving mom's life and any kits that may still be inside. A blocked canal can cause the kits inside to die before they can be delivered if they have to remain to long.
If one is born with fluid in the lungs and/or still in the sac ... do you know how to handle that one?
The kits should quieten down for a bit before they are born ... once they get in position, mother nature has a way of keeping them there. :)
::wave::
Jo Ann
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I know what to do if there is fluid in their lungs. If its anything like puppies than Ive done it many times before.
I cup them in my hands with their heads facing my fingertips and gently but with some thrust, lift them up and quickly rush my hands downward, which usually loosens up anything and forces it out. Ive done it with puppies a lot when they seem to be not breathing or having trouble.
Do you think taking an xray at this point would be detrimental to the babies and or mom? Now remember I work at the hospital, so I would be holding her for it, and I would only hold her tail and thats it. I have no intention of handling her or putting any pressure on her belly, I dont want to comprimise the babies and cause an abortion. I was planning on just letting her walk out onto the table from her carrier, without even picking her up. I was going to call my vet and ask her what she thought. but I would like your opinion too. This way Ill be somewhat prepared for the number of kits, and if they are in position or not. It would be easier to do it before, rather than after to make sure Im not missing one or that ones hiding in there once she delivered a few.
shes laying flat and what not the past day. for the past few weeks, all she has done is lay on her side, now its the flat position and this morning I walked in and saw two legs sticking up, I thought she was dead, but as soon as she saw me she jumped up. I dont know if she was on her back or what not , but it was weird.
Still eating well, drinking and pooping well, and gaining weight.
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An x-ray won't hurt the kits--at this point they are fully developed--in early pregnancy when the fetus is developing, an x-ray can cause damage to it. I would worry about stressing mom out too much, though. It sounds like she is getting close to delivery, so I wouldn't try to do too much with her. If you think she could handle it without getting too upset, then I would do it for your own piece of mind. But if it seems like she is going to be really stressed by it then maybe just let her be for a few more days...it sounds like she is getting really close.
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Oh I know, I wasnt worried about causing damage to the babies with the radiation, I was worried about the stress to mom and moving her from my house to an unknown place would cause stress on her and the babies.
They are pretty close and I dont want to make an issue out of nothing if she is completely ok and she is just waiting until the right time. Im just getting ahead of myself with worry. I didnt see this with her during her last pregnancy. I never really noticed the babies move, She wasnt this big last time, and I just feel like its lasting so long.
But I dont stress out in front of her because she definitely picks up on it.
If she doesnt have them by Friday, Im going to bring her in and take some xrays. I can always post them on here too for all of you.
Ill see what point shes at on Friday morning.
But then I dont want to interfer if things are going ok.
I dont know. I guess I just have to relax and play it by ear.
She weighed 878.8 grams tonight. Last night was 864.6
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::silly:: If the weather is pretty and it is a short trip, it may be OK, if you can make it in and out of the office smoothly. If you and she are close, and she feels 100% safe with you, it may not stress her ... it's something you may have to play by ear. At any point she appears the least bit stressed, just hold her, talk and calm her and make another try, if it still seems to bother her the second time, then I would stop. This is, if you decide to do it.
If you can take a treat that she likes, like papaya ... that usuall takes a little while to eat ... getting her to flatten out to get a good shot may be the hardest thing, but if you can ... hold her by the tail with one hand and let her nibble at the papaya while you hold it in front of her ... this usually works, if she will go for eating it from your hand.
Also, some vets will have a tube of glass (similar to the PVC pipe, but in glass or see-thru-plastic) that they will let an animal crawl inside of to feel secure while they do the x-rays. It can be turned or tilted to get at the right angles without actually having to put your hands on the chin. It's something you might want to call and discuss with your vet to see what he/she suggest and/or normally does.
If it will make you more comfortable to find out if the kits are a normal size and how many, it might be worth it ... that depends on how much the "not knowing" is getting to you ... and whether or not you think it will stress her.
It's hard to have to make that decision, but it is one only you can make. Just weigh the good/the bad and the maybe, against the information it could provide and ask your self if the answers are worth the action. Keep in mind knowing ahead of time is good, especially in some situations ... that way you are more prepaired, but not knowing because it might stress her and cause additional problems ... all this has to be weighed by you.
No matter what decision you make, I think it will be the right one because it is you and your little one you are looking out for. I know that's like tossing you a hot potato and saying don't drop it, but, all to many times these are things you have to do that no one else can or even has a right to do for you.
Please keep us posted and let us know what you do. :)
Chinnie Hugs!
::wave:: Jo Ann
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Yea, the weather was nice today, and work is no more than a mile from my house, so I brought her in over my lunch bread and held her for xrays.
She has 4 babies in there.
All their heads are facing towards her head. None of them are heading towards the birth canal.
How long do you think it takes for them to flip around? Does it happen a few hours before delivery, or days?
She wasnt very stressed. Slept most of the time she was there. And the babies are really moving around like crazy! One jolted her so much it woke her up from her sleep.
I took pics of the xray but the computer at work wasnt working well so I couldnt send them to my email account. I will try again tomorrow.
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::silly::Hi Jen,
Congratulations on the quads! Now, lets hope mother nature takes over and lets everything happen naturally. Your part will be for you to be prepaired for them and letting your vet know to keep a "head's up" just encase she/you need help. If there is ANY sign of blood and a kit does not appear within 30 minutes, I would get her to the vet immediately, for her and her kit's safety and your sanity. Delaying could mean her life or death and the same for her kits. With more kits, the odds go up for a possible breach birth. Should she appear to be in hard labor constantly for more than 15 minutes between kits ... again, I would get with the vet, she may need help. It can be an hour or more between births, but she should be going in and out of the hard labor between kits.
The kits usually turn on their own during the last 12 to 24 hours and settle down quite a bit on their movements. If you notice lots of movement, then a couple hours later ... little or no movement for a while ... get ready ... they should be delivered within 24 hours. Mom will also increase her water intake by about 50% this last 24 hours. The water is almost a dead give-a-way.
The first sign of labor is usually the flattening down and panting. I would want to be there, if at all possible, when she delivers, just to play it safe. The larger the number of kits, the higher the chance they are not all in the delivery position. Most of mine deliver in the early mornings or late evening. What time of day/night does she normally deliver?
Knowing now, that they are quads, you know why there seems to be a "delay" in delivery ... I've thought a couple of mine were going to explode before they delivered because they were so big. Also, since their are so many, you can understand why you saw the movements so early ... no room or padding to hide them. ::)
Keep in mind, the first 24 to 48 hours mom is feeding them colostrum, not milk. What she is giving them is to help get rid of everything in their system that was their during the time she carried them. This time is of great importance to the kits. Try to make sure each kit is getting to nurse. But, if push comes to shove, to fighting, the weak ones will loose out and must have some one-on-one time with mom.
Should mom ignore one of the kits or push it away ... mother nature's way of survival of the fittest ... that kit is in trouble and will need your attention, help and supplementing. You will probably have to take over raising it, with the help of daddy or a foster mom, hopefully. This could mean several things ... she does not have enough milk for all and she must shun the weakest one so the others have a chance to survive. Or she knows that this little one is
going to die, for what ever reason, usually underdeveloped vital organs. You not knowing which it is, should try to help this little one in it's battle for life. To get a better idea which it might be, you can remove all of the other kits and put the one she is ignoring with her. If she attempts to feed it, you have a good chance of helping it survive, if not, more than likely their is an internal problem with the kit and mom knows this. If left with the mom, either she, or one of the siblings, will probably kill it, to keep it from suffering.
With quads, you almost always have to help with some supplementing. I prefer using goat's milk, but, their are other substitutes that can be used. In supplementing, I keep the largest ones full so they will not be as hungry, so that the weaker ones will have the better chance in getting the most natural chinchilla milk from mom. Goat's milk can be put into a water bottle and set up to feed the kits when you are trying to get a nap in or have to be at work.
Time to get your nursing kit together! And I would definitely be giving mom some extra vitamins and calcium to help her get herself in shape to care for so many. It is always good to have critical care on hand also.
Slept most of the time she was there.
Smart chin ... trying to rest now for the strength she will need later. rofl
As far as the x-ray ... when copying it, if you leave the lid up on the copier and, if you have one, shine a bright light down on the x-ray while it is being copied, it will usually be easier seen on the copy.
Keep us posted!
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Thanks definitely for all the advice and the tips.
I guess they are kind of like dogs and cats in a way that they will ignore the sick ones if they know somethings wrong.
I think all rodents do this too.
What are the chances that she would need a C Section, I really hope it doesnt come to this.
I showed the xrays to one of the other doctors today at work and she might think there is 5. Definitely 4 for sure, but a possibility on 5.
Ill keep my eyes open on the signs. I definitely want to be there, Im in their room all the time. I think they are getting sick of me.
Im just worried about the breech. This is my biggest concern. I know most chins dont get Dystocia but with more babies, I bet its very common.
She had her last litter on a Sunday morning, like right before 9 am. I walked in there at 9:30 and she was cleaning them off, the white one was still bloody and wet.
So early morning I would say. This will be her second litter.
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::silly::The chances on a C-section is totally unknown. Everything could go like clock work or the first one could be breach and it could all go down hill from the start ... that's why I said what I did about signs of blood or long hard labor with nothing appearing. Now, she will clean herself, so watch for spots of blood on the bedding or on her fur that she can not reach.
Did the doctor think there was a third one on her left side? She looks a little larger on the left side from the picture, that's why I said maybe 5. If it is hard for them to tell how many now, it may be another week or two. (Don't scream to loud when you let the thoughts of another week or two of this sink in.) Liberty's last month and Giget's last month, I kept thinking "She can't keep them in there much longer or they will start popping out the sides!". :D
If there is even a chance of a fifth one, you should be there if at all possible ... she may not have the strength to deliver and take care of them all, especially during delivery and right at first. Please read over the part about what to do if they are still in the sac ... even though it is much like the puppies and kittens I am sure you have helped with ... just much smaller. The sling method for fluid in the lungs is much safer than the suction ... their little lungs are so small, they can be easily collapsed with suction. I tell others to practice with a salt shaker, they will not be much bigger than your fingers and you will have to have a good grip on them. With five, the weights will be on the lean side ... probably all under 45 grams. Any born under 35 grams will have to be watched very carefully.
Keep a roll of paper towels near by ... they are disposable, but mainly, they are much more absorbant than cloth when cleaning a kit.
As soon as you get one clean, let momma have it back, or she may become upset or stressed ... you do not want that. She needs to keep their scents so that she will not reject them.
Stock up on formula and/or goat's milk and glass eye droppers. Glass because they can be sterilized. A couple of extra water bottles for the goat's milk would be a good idea ... steralize between feedings.
With a chinchilla, feeding them is different from feeding a kitten or puppy. They will bite off the nipple of a bottle and suck an eye dropper down into the throat if you are not extremely careful.
Just wrap the kit in a wash cloth, keep Q-Tips and a moist cloth handy to help clean milk that drips down ... as it drips ... don't give it a chance to dry, or the fur will slip loose when you are trying to clean them.
Put one drop on their lips at a time and let them go at their own speed.
When giving them the drop, be careful not to let the dropper go inside the kits mouth ... they have a very strong ability to suck and can suck the dropper all the way in, in a split second.
Hold the dropper between your thumb and pointing finger and keep your pinky finger locked straight and braced against the hand holding the kit.
Check out "First Signs of Trouble" with short videos on how to feed a chinchilla kit at: http://www.geocities.com/jobernstein1949/
Don't worry about her being sick of seeing you in the room ... she will appreciate it when everything goes into motion.
No more dust baths till the kits come, and none until they are 10 days old, for momma or the kits.
::taunt:: Have fun ... just joking!
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Yup, the sling method. That is what I was referring to, I just didnt have a term for it. I never suction, it makes me nervous, we never do in other animals either.
Thanks for all your help. Another week or two is ok with me as long as it keeps her and her babies healthy.
Unfortunately since I thought she was going to deliver a while ago, she hasnt had a dust bath in a few weeks, almost a month. I feel bad, but I definitely cant give her one now, its cutting it too close.
I like the eye dropper in that picture, Ill get some of those. I didnt even think of why they couldnt use bottle nipples, I forget puppies arent born with teeth, as chinchillas are.
Good call!
My main reason for wanting them to come soon is because she is just achin, complete discomfort and it makes me feel bad.
Yes, the doctor thought she saw a third one on the Left side, there was definitely two that were superimposed on each other, and she thought she might have seen a third with them. Two definitely on the other side.
Im still waiting to get the pictures of the rads but in due time.
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::silly::Almost forgot ...
When she delivers, watch what she does with each afterbirth.
She should eat part of each one of them, but not all of all of any of them ... 4 or 5 would be to many ...
BUT ...
If she does NOT eat part of one or two of the afterbirths ...
Watch carefully the kits who belong to those afterbirths she does not eat any of.
This is often a warning sign that there may be something wrong with the kit.
Sounds crazy, but I've seen it happen that way many more times than not.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Ill keep a look out. Ive heard that eating all the afterbirths is too much protein for them. Since they are not carnivores, it hurts their digestive system to be eating it completely.
With her last litter I hadnt found any afterbirths, so Im assuming she ate them all. But I was not there for the actual birth, but practically within maybe an hour of her delivering.
I hope Im home for the birth, It makes me nervous that they can have them anytime, usually early morning when Im either sleeping or at work.
She had them on a weekend last time, Im praying she does the same this time.
Especially with the 4 or 5 babie.
Ok, so this C Section thing. If the first baby turns out to be breeched, would it be necessary to do surgery?
What if the first one comes out fine and the rest are breeched?
Im just asking because I dont know how many chinchilla C Sections my exotic vet has had experience with.
I asked the doctors I work for, and all 4 of them said they wouldnt attempt it because of their lack of experience with anesthesia and chinchillas. I mean we have protocols for small animal surgerys and anesthesia, but they are still nervous about the idea. Ill have to call my critters vet and see if shes had any experience with them at all. If it was necessary. I just want to know what it would take to make a section necessary, so I can pass the word to my vet so she will know more of what shes dealing with.
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::silly:: Wow! Can you think of an easier question?
You have hit me with one that is impossible for me to answer.
It would have to be you and your vet to make that decision, should it come to that, at that time. The experience of your vet and her belief in herself that she can do it safely, and the circumstances at the time would be what your vet would probably base her recommendations on. I would think that she would not do it unless there was no other way to save mom and/or the kits.
Have you talked with your vet about the options that would be available to you? It would be best if the two of you could talk and you could give her the options that are acceptable to you before hand. We rarely think clearly and objectively in a crisis. She will probably ask you, if push comes to shove, and she must decide one or the other ... which does she save ... the mom or the kits? If she does not ask, tell her anyway. If mom does not make it, it will be touch and go for the kits ... on the other side ... chinchillas do not react to surgery in a good way and you could loose her anyway.
I have never had to have one of my females have a C-section. Usually this is not done unless the mother is in danger of loosing her life. When a C-section is done, the mom can not safely keep her kits with her and care for them.
Normally, the reasons for a C-section would be if one is breach and know that their are other kits yet to be born, that could not be extracted other wise. If one is breach, more than likely, the vet would try to help it out naturally. If this was not possible, and if time is of the essence, the vet may want to extract the one that is breach in a more forcefull way (it would not make it) to give the others a chance to be born naturally and live. At this point, it is a decision that has to be made quickly. If one is breach, not only is it's life in danger, but so are the other kits and the mom, you have to consider all of them. The kits have to be delivered in a timely manner, other wise, they can all die.
Because of the fact that they are full or almost full-term, it would be next to impossible for the mom to absorb them back into her system, should they die before delivery and were not delivered or extracted. This situation would almost give the vet no other options, that I know of at this time. You do not want to have to work with the massave infection that would be inside of the mom, due to a dead kit/kits, if they are left there.
The other time that a C-section would be necessary is if the kit/kits are to large to be born, due to the natural size or something like Siamese twins.
What were the birthweights of the 3 from her other litter?
Now, about the afterbirth. Any time I know there are 3 or more kits, I will let the mom nibble a little on each afterbirth (because it does contain things she needs at this time), but, I will remove the afterbirth as soon as she lays it down. Again, I first watch to see if she will nibble on each to have a little "heads-up" warning to watch that particular kit. They will usually smell it, then eat it, or smell it, then throw it down.
Always watch for and count the number of afterbirths, it should be the same number as the number of kits born ... unless their are twins ... twins would be two kits born at the same time in the same sac. Save the afterbirths until you know the kits are OK and the vet does not need to examine them.
There is (or at least use to be) a forum for vets that I think is based in California, I believe they are in with California Chins. If I were you, under the circumstances, I would head your vet in that direction. I know they have helped my vet many, many times when there has been a problem she did not have the answer to.
Jen, you are asking hard questions, but I will not sugar-coat any answer I give you. To me, that would be an insult to your intelligence. I wish more would ask, so that they would not be in a total shock, when something happens. Maybe this thread will give others answers they are afraid to ask.
I am known as a pestomistic optimist. In short that means, I expect the worst, but hope for the best. That way if something does happen, I am prepaired ... if it does not happen, then I am ecstatic because I know what could have been.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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I do appreciate all your help with answering my questions and giving me insight to your knowledge.
I hope those that are too scared to ask any questions will look here and learn something.
I just checked on her and she is in a different spot each time I go in there. She isnt in her bed at the moment, but lying in the pine shavings. They are smaller shavings than the others I buy and somewhat softer. She is laying on her belly, but her rear is on its side.
This morning when I went in she was in the front of the cage laying next to her bed but almost curled in a circle with her head near her abdomen/ rear. Ive never seen her in a position like this before.
Weighed 878.8 grams last night.
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Kiwi hasnt moved from that one spot all day. The only time she did was just now when I went in to clean and feed.
But right back in the spot she went. Her belly is very hard and tender feeling. I can feel their little bodies inside when I gently rest my finger on her abdomen near her vulva.
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::silly::How's Kiwi doing today? Maybe she was just waiting for Mother's Day, to present you with some special presents. :) I will keep my fingers crossed that is the situation. :::grins::
When she is on the bedding ... how is her breathing? Short, rapid and shallow? or Long slower deeper breaths? Or just normal? Flattening out and the change in breathing is often the earliest sign of labor with chinchillas.
Can you feel any moisture in her fur? Often you will know when the sac breaks for the first kit by watching for this. Also, she will start cleaning herself constantly.
Stubborn little ones, aren't they? But, with this many, the longer she carries them, the better it is for them. Quads and quints are usually small. Kits usually put on most of their weight in the last 3-4 weeks.
Keep us posted! I think she should be very close now.
You thought her due date would have been April 14th because it had been 111 days since the last litter arrived. Now it is day 141 (since the last litter was born), - 111 = +30 days. A chin's cycle is usually 28 to 35 days ... that puts her very close to due, if she got pregnant during the 2nd cycle after the kits were born. ::)
::wave::
Jo Ann
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She is doing good today. Now laying in her bed again with her head resting on the edge of it.
Her breathing seems short and somewhat faster than a normal resting chins rate.
I didnt feel her for any moisture today, Ill check later tonight when she is more awake and when I go to feed her, this is usually when I weigh her too.
I was hoping for today as well, so your thinking at least 5 days left since their cycle is 28-35 days? I told myself if they werent here by today, than she would probably have them next sunday. Im going based on the fact that she had them on a sunday last time and it was exactly on her 111th day of me putting her with her mate.
so she was like clock work.
I will weigh her later and update. So far she has gained 141.8 grams in a few days short of a month. I forgot to weigh her yesterday. Today would be exactly 4 weeks since I thought she was "due". She is drinking a good amount of water. Im going to fill it all the way up today and mark the bottle with a marker to see how much shes drinking.
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She weighs 884.5 today. Gained 147.5 grams in exactly 4 weeks.
I had her running around today and she loved it but kept jumping back up into her
cage to lay down.
She is starting her stretching and laying flat more often and her water bottle was a quarter down
from what I filled it with this AM.
So I wish it wasnt so late I really want to be there when it happens in case she needs
my help.
I dont want to risk being away but I have to work at 7:30 in the am tomorrow and I really
dont want her to have them while Im at work.
Where can I find the Goats Milk, at the grocery store? Liquid or powder? Just so I am prepared tomorrow incase she delivers.
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::silly:: I figured she would enjoy the exercise ... the fact you have the cage where she can go back to it and rest any time she needs to is great! By returning to it off and on, she is pacing herself ... this is good.
She is starting her stretching and laying flat more often and her water bottle was a quarter down
from what I filled it with this AM.
Sounds good to me ... hopefully she they will be good little kits and wait till you get there. ::)
From the first to the last could take anywhere from an hour to 5 hours ... her body needs to rest between kits, but they do not always co-operate there.
Goat's milk is in a can. Most grocery stores carry it, our local WalMart has it. Watch out for sticker shock, it is expensive when you first see it. But keep in mind, it should last a good bit, because they drink so little and is better for them.
Keep it refrigerated after opening, but put it in an air-tight glass jar for storing. Take out only what you think you will use at each feeding ... do not pour back into the original batch any that was not used because of cross contaminating. If you use a very small jar (such as a 2 to 4 ounce container that had baby food or jelly or shrimp cocktail in it), when feeding them, you can store any left over for the next feeding in that jar. I usually start with about an ounce and see how far it will go.
Do NOT heat it in the microwave.
Place the small feeding jar in a coffee cup or soup bowl with a handle, with hot water in it to warm the formula (goat's milk). Bring it up to room temperature or slightly above, careful not to get it to hot. If they are real hungry, or you are running late, you can take a short cut warming it by running hot water over the outside of the feeding jar.
Be prepared ... this is not a hurry-up session ... it takes time. When Mocha had her quads (my first set) and I was feeding them on the hour every hour, it seemed like I only had about 15 to 20 minutes bread between feeding and got very little sleep ... I slept in an office chair with my feet in the other chair, in the chin room for the first 4 days and nights, grabbing cat naps, when I could.
Chinchilla kits are usually tucked up under mom nursing about 80% of the time ... the other 20% of the time they are taking years off your life while you watch them scrap with each other and climbing to the top of the cage, turning loose and falling to the bottom.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for today ... remember I said, "that puts her very close to due, if she got pregnant during the 2nd cycle after the kits were born." I was basing that on a 111 day gestation schedule.
Keep us posted!
::wave::
Jo Ann
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You will find canned goats milk in the baking section of your grocery store in the canned milk area. Mix one can of water into the goats milk.
Best of luck with the delivery and new kits.
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Thanks guys. Im heading to get some now. And some of those droppers and glass jars.
She definitely has me thinking about her all day. I came home during lunch....No babies.
After work..... No babies.
But I will let her run around again tonight. That seemed to help her and stimulate things.
The kits arent moving as much as I had noticed them. And Jo Ann you said this was also a
big sign.
Ill keep you all posted.
OH and I bought two chins from Jim Ritterspach and they came in today. So I am just glowing
with excitement. Babies would only put me over the edge of happiness!!
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::silly:: On adding a can of water ... I almost forgot.
Since it is 1/2 goats milk and 1/2 water, keep the goat's milk full strength in the glass jar in the refrigerator after opening.
When you are ready to feed, boil the water, then put an equal amount of water to an equal amount of goat's milk ... this should have it at almost the perfect temperature, since the goat's milk will have come from the refrigerator.
What color chins did you get from Jim? Pictures, please!
::wave::
Jo Ann
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That's a good idea about not mixing the goats milk and water prior to feeding if you are going to keep the mixture in the refrigerator Joanne. After I mix my goats milk I freeze what I am not going to use in 2 days in an ice cube tray. When the cubes are frozen I put them freezer bags and thaw one cube as needed. I waste less goats milk that way and always have some on hand if needed.
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Thats a great idea on freezing the milk. This is after its mixed with the water correct?
Still no babies!! But she has grown much more lethargic. I think she has put herself on
bed rest.
The chins I got from Jim......I got a Violet Male, a year old....and a Standard sapphire carrier Female, almost a year old.
Of course I wont be breeding them together. I have a standard violet and ebony carrier female for this male waiting for him. No male for the sapphire carrier yet. But I couldnt pass her up. I have the pictures of them that were on his website. I have yet to take some of my own because I dont want to stress them out right now since they
just got off the plane.
Heres some pics (from Jims website) of Vinny my new Violet...
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/VioletMale.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/VioletMale2.jpg)
And some of his pics of Aliaha my Standard /SC female
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/SCFemale.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/SCFemale2.jpg)
Oh I got the goats milk by the way, and some droppers too. Im just making sure Im prepared for this large litter.
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I just wanted to mention just incase it is something I should be worried about. Yesterday, after Kiwi moved from her one spot, I noticed a lot of wet shavings from under her. It could be just urine since she hasnt moved really and just urinated under herself. But then this morning I went in to check on her and I had her walk towards me and underneath her again was more wet shavings, not as much as yesterdays but a section of wetness. Again, could be urine, but I just wanted to know that if her water did break and nothing happened with a baby, there should be blood seen at some point correct?
Am I safe in assuming this is just urine. I smelled it and couldnt really tell because it smelled like wet pine.
She is drinking a lot of water, and Im not seeing the babies move as much as they had been. They are still moving, but barely.
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I just wanted to mention just in-case it is something I should be worried about. Yesterday, after Kiwi moved from her one spot, I noticed a lot of wet shavings from under her. It could be just urine since she hasnt moved really and just urinated under herself. But then this morning I went in to check on her and I had her walk towards me and underneath her again was more wet shavings, not as much as yesterdays but a section of wetness. Again, could be urine, but I just wanted to know that if her water did break and nothing happened with a baby, there should be blood seen at some point correct?
Am I safe in assuming this is just urine. I smelled it and couldnt really tell because it smelled like wet pine.
She is drinking a lot of water, and Im not seeing the babies move as much as they had been. They are still moving, but barely.
:) Never assume ... break the word "assume" down into smaller words ...
Is she cleaning her self pretty good? Chinchillas are very clean animals ... it is not normal for one to sit in urine.
Me, I would take her to the vet a.s.a.p. It may be urine and it may be her water breaking. Is it staining her fur?
Either way, it is not a good thing ...
If it is urine, she's setting herself up for infection big time and you do not want that for her or the kits.
If it her water breaking and the kits are not comming, it could be much worse. Getting her to the vet would be my #1 priority right now. To see blood and no kits is always a vet check a.s.a.p. ... but to see fluid under her more than once, even with no blood, I would get her to the vet and let them check her out. She is to close to term to take any chances, especially with a large litter.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Thats a great idea on freezing the milk. This is after its mixed with the water correct?
Yes mix the goats milk and water before freezing.
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Ok, Ill have to run her in tomorrow once Im done with work. Im just worried about them handling her and palpating her alot.
I finally got the xrays emailed to myself so I will post them.
She hasnt sat in any water or urine at all today. She is sitting in her bed, and sometimes on top of her house.
I havent been able to look under her to see if its staining. She is so big I dont feel comfortable moving her about unless I can sneak a peak while shes laying on her side.
I came up with a date of this Sunday that she should be ready. You said their cycle is 28-35 days, this Sunday will be the 35th day of the cycle since she had her last litter. I ordered a brand new gram scale also so I can weigh the kits better, my old scale wasnt that great.
Here are the xray pics.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/xraykiwi5.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/xraykiwi4.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/xraykiwi3.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/xraykiwi2.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/xraykiwi.jpg)
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::silly::The x-rays are real good ... especially the first one. You can see the heads and spines of the kits.
Jen, I'm just going by what I would do ... you know her better than anyone does, it's your call.
We need to run her around the room a few times ...
maybe the kits would want to come out and see what was going on ...
rofl ... just joking.
Here I've been concentrating on your little one so much, I've forgotten to keep a close eye on mine. We've been presented with 8 kits in the last 2 weeks. A Pastel and a Tan from Bonnie & Paul (their first litter), a hetero Eb and a White/Eb from Missy (their first litter together), 2 Violets from June & Josh, a Charcoal from Duke & Duchess, and a black velvet from Miss Abby and BJ. In the 2 weeks before that, a pink white and a standard from Cindy Lou and Chubby Chew, 2 homo Ebs from Midnight and Star and 2 Standard kits. They make the sweetest sounds when they are kits. ::Lovehearts::
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Hey Congrats on all the kits!!! Im so sorry Ive been keeping your attention on my girl.
You obviously have your hands full too!!
But then when Ki has hers, we can share their photos!
Normally I would be nervous, as I have been this entire time. She seems to be eating ok, drinking very well, now moving around more. Maybe when I saw her the times I did, it was just coincidental that she was in the same area. She could very well have moved around during the day and right back to the spot to sleep. The urine spot I dont know. I dont think any water broke. I dont see any blood. And I dont see her cleaning herself all that much.
She is lying around a lot.
I may just bring her in tomorrow just to be sure anyway.
I think she is just exhausted and very worn out from this pregnancy. Its Nothing like her last one.
Thanks for fixing up that xray by the way. Now I can show more people who dont know much about reading xrays, and use the arrows you have to point them out.
Again congrats on all your youngings :-)!!! :::grins:: :::grins:: ::clapp:: ::clapp::
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::silly:: Nothing to be sorry about ... I enjoy working with others! It has kept many things off my mind that I didn't want to think about. Also, the chins say "Thank-you" ... since I have not been waking them up several times a day to see if they have kits under them yet. rofl Of course, I have Lady, our Great Dane, she keeps an eye on them. As soon as we have new kits, she comes to get me to show me where they are. I think she thinks she's their momma, too. ::)
Yep, it could be coincidental, especially if you were checking on her about the same times she would normally be asleep. Chins have their own habits and favorite places to sleep/rest. She's probably smarter than we are and knows she's got a rough go of it ahead her, and is saving her strength till then. :::grins::
The main reason I did that to the x-ray was to ask you, if that was where the vets think the 5th kit is (the one on the far left of the x-ray). I'll post it now. You can really see even the upper and lower front teeth in the second from the left, but the two on the right are easy to see, even their little spines. Just click on the picture to inlarge it.
::howdythere::
Jo Ann
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Well low and behold I came home from work today and my cats were sitting outside the chin room door very curious. I went in and Kiwi was sitting proud with her new Quads!!!!!!!
I am in the middle of taking pics now so I will post them within the next few hours.
Two boys and Two girls I believe.
They all seem well except for the runt who keeps getting pushed away from mom and food. I mixed the goats milk and have been feeding her. I plan on some alone time with her and mom later this evening as well.
Im just so relieved that she delivered safely and everyone is ok. I brought her back today for a radiograph to make sure there wasnt a 5th and there wasnt. Just the 4.
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CONGRATS!! ::silly:: glad evey thing went ok. I can't wiat to see the pics.
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CONGRATULATIONS!!! I am sure you are both glad the wait is over, and all went well. She isn't even my chin, and I was nervous! LOL
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Thanks for thinking of myself and my Ki. I really appreciate all the help and support.
I have some pictures. The other camera isnt working, so I had to retake some with my Fiances camera. So I will have better ones tomorrow.
T4 Pink White Male 43 g
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads013.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads014.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads018.jpg)
(lighting isnt really good here, he really is white!)
T5 Beige White Male (white with beige markings) 43 g
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads019.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads025.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads024.jpg)
T6 Beige Female 35 g
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads006.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads005.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads003.jpg)
T7 Standard Female 46 g
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads039.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads040.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/qtpie61282/KiwisQuads056.jpg)
The only thing I worry about now is the little runt. She is getting pushed away by the others, trampled on and I dont want her to not eat. I left her alone with mom for about 30 minutes and gave her time to eat (i hope thats what she was doing while under mom), and to just bond with mom alone.
I have also been trying to give her the goats milk, mixed with a can of water, warmed up, not too hot, but not cold. She turns it away after one or two drops. Kicks the dropper and then struggles to get away from it.
What can I do to make her eat it??
Does this just mean she doesnt need it, and that shes getting enough from mom?
I would just like suggestions for her. Runts in kit litters always scare me. Her last runt in the last litter past away after 3 days.
Thanks everyone! Mom is doing well too, getting her figure back rofl
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::silly::Glad to hear mother nature took over and everything went well.
::clapp:: Congratulations!
::hah:: I couldn't get on line last night (that figures), but woke up to the good news this morning. :::grins::
Looks like the first impression, 4 kits, was the true one. :) T5 (beige/white) is looking for milk under the stuffed animal. rofl
They are cute! What are the weights?
I have found that the runt will get a better chance to get to mom's milk (the good stuff), if the bigger kits are kept full by supplementing them. Mom may not have enough for all 4 kits. Cranberry juice in an extra bottle will often get mom to drink more liquids, so that she can produce more milk. And/or a bottle of the goats milk hanging in the cage when you are not there will give the kit/kits more nourishment also.
It is not unusual for the first day or two, that they only take 2 or 3 drops of the formula at a time, during the supplementing sessions. That's why you have to feed them every hour on the hour the first 2 or 3 days.
Kits usually spend about 80% of their time under mom the first few days.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Well finally, and so well worth the wait, they are gorgeous.
Congrats!
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They are so cute! The runt sure is tiny.
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Thanks everyone. The runt is tiny. And its actually a boy. I looked again last night, and it definitely was not a girl. He was so small when I found them that I probably didnt look closely.
If I put cranberry juice in a bottle., do I need to mix it with water? or straight cranberry juice?
The standard female keeps picking on the beige white male, he has a bite mark on his nose.
Their weights are posted with their pictures. The two white ones are each 43 grams, I think they were twins because in the xray you see the two on the left, pretty much overlapping each other. The runt is 36 grams, and the standard monster is 46 grams.
What happens if they push the dropper away, does that mean they are full, or dont like the taste? How can I make it more palatable?
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I have found they resist the dropper at first just because it is unfamiliar. It seems like with the kits I nursed I had to ALMOST force feed them the first couple of times, and after that they got the hang of it. It took a lot of time and persistence at first. Also, I found once the formula began to cool they wouldn't touch it. My picky kits insisted their formula be just the right temperature, a little more than lukewarm, I guess like it would be from mom.
You should put in a bottle of 50/50 water and cranberry juice, and make sure the juice has no sugar added, and that you also leave a second bottle with plain water for her as well.
If the kits are fighting and actually injuring each other you may need to separate them and alternate kits in with mom for feeding. I had a set of triplets I had to do this with. I placed the kits who were not with mom in a separate cage with dad, and then rotated them every hour, feeding formula to the kits that were not going in with mom, so that everyone got fed every hour, just they alternated between formula and mom's milk. Unfortunately, this has to be done EVERY hour round the clock. You will probably find then when they are separated from mom they won't fight each other, but when they go in to nurse they will. So I would rotate them in two groups putting the standard and the beige white in separately, so they do not nurse together. Good luck!