Chinchilla Community Forums

Breeders => General Breeder Chat => Topic started by: Abby W. on April 15, 2007, 05:15:59 PM

Title: Color question
Post by: Abby W. on April 15, 2007, 05:15:59 PM

My ebony female, Cybil, just delivered two kits, a beige male, and a female that is mostly white with dark gray/black markings on her face and back.  I am not sure whether this girl is a white ebony or a mosaic.  The father is a pink white, so both colors are possible.  Does anyone know how to tell the difference?

I would post pics but I made the tragic mistake of loaning the camera to my brother, who seems to have "borrowed" it permanently  ::shrug::

Thanks ahead of time for your help!

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: QTPie61282 on April 15, 2007, 07:47:00 PM

I believe it would be a White Ebony because if one of the parents is Ebony, then the ebony gene will show up in the kit.  It cant be a standard x white mosaic because the ebony gene would show over that.  But this is only if the mom is ebony, hetero or homo.
If the mom was a standard then it would be a regular mosaic.  but since she is ebony, its a white ebony mosaic.  make sense?   

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: Abby W. on April 15, 2007, 08:06:45 PM

I think I understand what you are saying...the kit obviosuly got the white from her father, since her mother does not carry any white...but her mother is  hetero-ebony, so couldn't she have gotten either the standard OR the ebony from her mother?  I checked Silverfall and it said that either color was possible...
I am so confused.... ???

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: Jo Ann on April 16, 2007, 08:23:28 AM

::silly:: I believe QTPie explained it very well.

Always remember, when using a calculator, it is only as good as the information the person is putting into it. 
If you do not give all the correct  information, it can not give you a correct answer.

But, let's go back to basics, I helped you with, when you first started out ...

The Pink White father has White, Beige and Standard Gray in it's background.
Therefore: it will/can throw any one of these to the kits, + anything else that may be in his background.

The Ebony carries the ebony gene and will/can throw that, + anything else that may be in it's background. 

A chinchilla may be carrying a gene that is not visible, but, can pass it on to future generations, if thrown, it will show up sometime, in future generations.

Ebony is one of the genes that has a tendency to show up frequently, whether you want it to or not.

Carrying the ebony gene, even if it is not visible, has a tendency to give the look of a "dirty" belly in those chinchillas that should have a pure white belly.  (IE: Should this kit be paired with a white or a standard, it could produce a kit standard kit with a dirty looking belly ... very undesirable ... pet quality only!)

The ebony of the female parent added to the beige gene of the pink white father, can produce a tan or pastel, or a beige or a beige with a dirty-looking belly.

This is why it is very important to know the history of your chinchillas as far back as possible. 
You do not want to mix any more colors in the same pairing than absolutely necessary. 
The more you mix, the more likely you will have a genetically weaker chinchilla.

More than likely, you have a white/ebony, or white/ebony carrier. 

The black, that shows in the kits when young, can fade away, but they will still be carrying the ebony gene, and it can be thrown to a future kit.

Note: To anyone purchasing a white with black markings,
this does not mean it is definitely a white ebony. 
The same markings are possible by crossing a white with a black velvet,
which would make it a white/black velvet.
A much less expensive,
but often just as pretty chinchilla. 

Always know the background on your chinchilla!

::wave::
Jo Ann

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 16, 2007, 08:42:29 AM

I think people get confused with ebony because for awhile it was considered either homo or hetero as   with other colors, however, over the years we have learned that ebony isn't really as cut and dry as other colors. For example you must have 2 beige parents to get a homo beige baby.  It would receive one beige gene from each parent making it homo beige.  This is not the case with ebony.  I have found within my own herd that once there is ebony in the background you can assume all offspring will carry that ebony gene.  Before people thought that you had to breed two ebony parents together to create a homo ebony that would be solid black (ie having 2 ebony genes)
We now know that you can get a solid ebony chinchilla from a pairing of 1 ebony chinchilla to a non ebony chinchilla.  I have even managed to get a solid ebony chinchilla from a med ebony (what used to be called hetero ebony) to a full standard.
I have also had white belly babies born from ebonies that were then bred to non ebony chinchillas and they produced dark ebony babies.
Now most breeders have gotten away from using hetero and homo with regard to ebony.  Instead they are considered light, med, and dark just as you would describe a standard.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: Abby W. on April 16, 2007, 11:26:26 AM

OK, all of that makes a lot more sense.  I had, apparently mistakenly, been treating ebony the same as any other mutation.  I haven't done a lot of work with the ebonies, most of my pairings have been with whites, beiges, or violets.  I think I am going to need to do a little homework before working with ebonies further. 

Does anyone have any reading they can recommend?  Thanks again!

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: QTPie61282 on April 16, 2007, 03:25:28 PM

But I think you still can get solid ebonies from two ebony parents (hetero) since they both have the gene, then they can produce homo or hetero.  Am I wrong?  I understand what you mean by pairing a hetero eb with a standard and getting solid ebony babies.  Ive just never seen it.  But maybe it will have to be explained better to me because If the standard doesnt carry the ebony gene then how can it pass on the ebony gene to the offspring in order to make it a solid (Homo) Ebony?  Both parents would have to have the gene, showing in its phenotype or not.
 Jo Ann maybe you can clarify it for me.  Am I wrong in thinking this?  I also need more experience with ebonies.  I am waiting right now to pair two medium ebonies together.  I have their cages next to each other and wont be pairing them until the end of May early June.

But I do agree with you, if the parent has ebony than it most likely will be a white ebony.  that was how I always thought of it anyway.  I was told that the ebony gene shows up almost everytime in the phenotypes.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 16, 2007, 04:58:13 PM

That's just it, an solid ebony isn't a homo ebony.  Ebony is a cumulative gene. An ebony can be light, med, or dark and will still throw light, med, and dark babies even when bred to a standard ( non ebony) mate.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: Abby W. on April 16, 2007, 05:07:17 PM

So, a homo ebony is always a solid shiny black, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every
solid shiny black chin is a homo ebony, right?

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 16, 2007, 05:12:29 PM

sorry I meant to say its an accumulative gene

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: QTPie61282 on April 16, 2007, 05:40:02 PM

No, I understand that.  I have two medium ebonies, hetero ebonies.  I thought ALL Solid Shiny Black ebonies were Homo Ebonies.  Both genes is what makes them all the same black (not the medium, light or whatever).  If the chin is all one shade of black, nice and shiny, then it is a Homo Ebony.
A chin with the ebony gene (Hetero) will throw the gene either Light, Medium or Dark.  But there will always be a gray belly, its just a different shade but its never as dark as the Homo ebonies bellies which are the exact same color as the rest of its body.  In a dark Ebony (hetero) you can distinguish the veiling on the sides faintly but still a difference in shade.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: Billydkd on April 17, 2007, 07:25:30 AM

Ebonies can range from very shiny black to an animal that looks almost like a standard.  With Ebonies you "Don't" use Hetero or Homo anymore. you can have light, Medium,Dark or Extra Dark.  Just like standards you never use homo or hetero in standards you just color them as light, med, dark, extra dark.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: QTPie61282 on April 17, 2007, 11:47:20 AM

Wouldnt it matter to the pedigree or something purchasing a chin to know that it is a Homozygous or Hetero?  What if they us it for breeding and would need to know what it is?  I feel like its leaving out important infor if we dont say homo or heter.  dark light and medium I understand but that should be just classing it by shade not genotype.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 17, 2007, 11:57:08 AM

Billy makes a good point.  You don't buy a Homo or a Hetero Standard...Ebony is just the same. Black Velvet and white are also colors that don't come in Homo or Hetero.  The chinchilla either carries the gene or it doesn't. Some Velvets have a light veiling while others are jet black all the way down to the pure white belly.  Some ebonies are jet black while others look more like standards with a grey belly.

When you look at a standard breeding program you can darken the standard babies by breeding to darker colored standards as with ebony you can darken the ebony offspring by breeding to other dark ebonies.

 With all chinchillas you should get a pedigree that shows the history of the animal you purchase.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: Billydkd on April 17, 2007, 11:59:35 AM

See you are stuck in this box, they don't use homo or hetero anymore on ebony. Not even at shows.  only light to extra dark. you tell me its a homo ebony i have no clue what your talking about, step out of the box use light to extra dark. i checked all my peds on my ebonies none have hetero or homo on them.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 17, 2007, 12:05:43 PM

A little more on genes.  There are a bunch of types ( Recessives, Dominate, Accumulative)

 Heterozygous  When two gene pairs are different. Only one of the genes, the dominant one, is fully 
      expressed, but that chin is still capable of passing on the recessive gene to its offspring.

   Homozygous  When two gene pairs are a match. This animal has a gene pair for a trait that expresses
     them the same. This chinchilla possess 2 dominant or 2 recessive genes.

Accumulative genes depend on generations of breeding. As more and more of the proper genes are collected within the offspring, they become darker.

However stay away from mutation to mutation breeding for repeat generations as the babies get smaller and fur quality lessens.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: Billydkd on April 17, 2007, 12:22:01 PM

As for the kit i would  tell that it has ebony in it, Light, Med, Dark,what ever one it is with  Ebony, White.  you said its dark i would say dark ebony white.   As some don't like ebony in the line at all.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: QTPie61282 on April 17, 2007, 07:14:44 PM

Ok.  Im starting to look out of the box.  So with the given shades, light medium and dark, a Heterozygous can look exactly the same as a Homo?  I guess Im still stuck on the phenotypes and genotypes and that an Ebony has to have a genotype that either has two same genes or two different genes.  I realize that it doesnt matter because the color will come out, light medium or dark either way.  But isnt important to know whether the genes are both ebony, or ebony and standard mix?  what am i confused on???  help me, pull me out of the box.
I have two medium ebonies.  To me I always thought this meant they were hetero.  but it doesnt matter anymore, they could have any gene and just be medium ebony?  i just feel like knowing the genotypes is important. Like knowing that your beige is Homo or Hetero. The hetero is darker, just like I always assumed the solid black ebony was homo. 
I guess I need why the genes dont matter with ebonies anymore.  for the show I understand, but I would want to know, for breeding sakes.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 17, 2007, 07:43:20 PM

In my experience within my own herd any chinchilla that has ANY ebony in it is capable of producing a dark ebony baby.  I have a regular standard (with no ebony in her background) bred to a tan male.  Don't let the presence of the beige gene in the Tan confuse you the Ebony gene is still the same.

Those two just produced a very dark (what you are calling a HOMO) ebony.  Here are pictures of Dad and Baby.  Please excuse his appearance.  I just got home from a week long vacation and he is overdue for his dust bath.

I have found that breeding with a darker ebony helps to ensure that you produce more darker babies than lighter babies.  I try not to breed ebony to ebony because I believe in keeping the standard lines to strengthen the baby quality.  So I would bred an ebony to a standard breed those babies back to an ebony breed those babies to a standard, etc....

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 17, 2007, 07:48:41 PM

Here is standard Mom, looking horrible waiting for her 10 days to be over so she can have her first bath after giving birth. :D

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 17, 2007, 07:53:36 PM

So back to your question...that black baby would have received an Ebony gene from dad and standard gene from mom.  So it only takes 1 ebony gene to get a solid black baby.  That baby could then be bred back to a standard and, in my experience, could possibly produce babies that look like it does.  I do choose my darkest standards to breed to my ebonies and save my lighter standards to breed to beige and whites.  This will help you in achieving the colors you want.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: Jo Ann on April 18, 2007, 12:15:36 PM

::silly::Looks like you all have been having fun with the ebony "wild card" chinchillas, while I have stayed mostly off line for a few days.   rofl

Little stinkers, aren't they?   :D 
Like the black sheep of the family, it shows up when least needed!   ::glare::
OR, if you are lucky, when they are most needed.   ::)

The Tasco Ebony, Busse Charcoal and others are covered in chapter 8 of  "Basic Genetics and History of Mutation Chinchillas" compiled by Alice Kline, makes great reading.  She sure liked to have books with long titles.   :::grins::

 :blush2: BTW ... at that time they were still referred to as homo and hetero.  I'm not about to argue with the lady.   :)  She probably knew more than all of us put together.   :)

 ::nod::  And yes, NOW, they refer to the different shades of the ebonies as light, medium, dark and extra dark at the shows.  So, if that is   ::(:Down::  or  ::Lovehearts::  for anyone ::phhhhhhth:: we can just have a good  :D

But, I do believe, the reason for the change to light, medium, dark and extra dark could have been made due to additional research and/or some remarks I would hear in arguments "It's not a 'homo' unless it has 4 - 8 - 16 (or whatever number) of generations of producing ONLY the jet black color all over."  Of course, you hear so much, you kinda just let it leave in a haze after a while.   ::)


 ::wave::
Jo Ann

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: QTPie61282 on April 18, 2007, 04:07:19 PM

Thanks for the refresh on the genes, but Im pretty informed on genetics.  Many classes in college and what not.

However, over the years I have just picked up on Homo ebonies being all black, and hetero being black with gray bellies.  I just dont know how it switched from that to shades.  If it was homo or hetero, ebony shows the gene almost all the time in the kits anyway so why did they change it from genotypes to shade classification?

So Two Solid black ebonies could produce very light ebonies? almost standard lookin but with light gray bellies?  And two very light ebonies could make a solid black ebony?  Is this what everyone is trying to say? 

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 18, 2007, 05:33:01 PM

What we are saying is: It only takes one ebony gene to get a solid black baby.


Its not very common to get light ebonies from two dark parents, but like I showed you above it only takes one ebony parent to get a solid black baby and that parent doesn't have to be a dark ebony.  This is why we no longer use Homo and Hetero.  With beige chinchillas you must have two beige parents to get a homo beige baby.  (very light pink in color with a blue ring in the eye)  You can not get it any other way.  Ebony is not that way.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: QTPie61282 on April 18, 2007, 06:50:55 PM

I finally think I am starting to get it.  After all the years of noticing that light babies have been coming out from dark parents and vice versa, almost falsified the Homo and Hetero idea.
OK.  I understand. 
Im just so used to using genes for everything and figuring out what kits can come from what parents.
I dont have much experience with ebonies.  I have two medium ebonies right now, who I will be pairing in the next few months.  It would be kind of cool if they had a solid baby.  Then I would be able to see it with my own eyes.

Thanks everyone, though I have been difficult and confused and closed in a box, I think I finally get it.
Im just stuck in the punnet square that they burned into our heads in school.

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: chinclub on April 19, 2007, 05:01:26 AM

We are all always learning new things.  Thats half the fun of breeding.  :)

Title: Re: Color question
Post by: QTPie61282 on April 19, 2007, 08:34:41 PM

You are so right.  I cant seem to keep up with the changes.  But as long as I have all of you!!!  I should be ok.