Chinchilla Community Forums
Breeders => Breeding 101 => Topic started by: dianah on July 02, 2010, 02:10:02 PM
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on the 6th of april, one of my 'male' chins gave birth to three gorgeous babies. we had no idea she was pregnant, or indeed a girl so chinchi (the dad) was in the same cage when she gave birth. we took him out as soon as we found the babies, he was neutered and unfortunately had complications and died three weeks ago after a surgery to remove a puss capsule :'(
fluffy - mom - had mastitis and we had to hand rear the babies for the first few weeks but they all pulled through and we now have two boys - spock & ffynn and a girlie - pippi, all hetero beige.
as we were aware that there was a possibility of her being pregnant again, i avoided picking her up to weigh her so the only way was for her to jump on the scale and weigh herself (we've got a big postal scale that's always set up) so the weight records are rather sporadic.
but, looking at these, do you think she is pregnant? she never lies on her side (didn't do it when she was pregnant the first time)
3 babies born on the 6th of april
20/04 690g
30/04 680g
10/05 667g
29/05 667g
10/06 chinchi died and fluffy refused to come out of her cage until a week later - i was worried about her as she didn't seem to eat much
13/06 2 boys separated, 1 girl stays with mum (the babies are nearly 10 weeks old now)
17/06 709g
19/06 715g
25/06 740g (80 days in if she's pregnant)
27/06 750g
30/06 767g
so she put on 100g in a month. could it just be post weaning gain or would that be rather a lot? her due date would be the 26th of july.
it's weird, for the first couple of months we were hoping she wasn't pregnant because breed back is not good for them but since chinchi died i keep thinking it would be nice to have more chinchi babies. we are keeping all the babies so as long as everyone's healthy, it would be ok.
what do you think? thank you!
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As she wasn't nursing the kits I don't think too many nutrients would be diverted if she was pregnant again. From what I understand that is the main issue with the female getting pregnant so soon... probably not the only issue but the biggest. I have no answers to your other questions though, Sorry. Hopefully someone with more knowledge and experience will come on soon and give you better answers. :)
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thank you :) she actually did start nursing again after two or three weeks once her sore boob healed - the babies were biting trying to get milk when there was no milk coming out so she had cuts - poor little thing, that must have hurt quite a lot. she's such a good mum but at that point she was running away from them.
thankfully we managed to clear the mastitis within three days so she didn't have to have antibiotics.
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Females can die from breed backs. Usually one is handled, but repeated breed backs will deplete the mother nutrients.Her kits are like parasites and will take what they need to develop and/or while nursing.Both going on the same time can be so taxing for her that she becomes ill, and could die from complications.
Not a problem in this situation, and I would think things should go just fine.
I would how ever give mom extra calcium, & vit.c. Some will eat the tablets just as if they were treats. Or you can resort to hiding them in the treats, crushed.
Not sure a 100 grams is enough to say, but time will tell.
What is her normal weight before she got pregnant the last time?
Most will become larger after they are put into breeding.
We just never seem to loose all the baby fat from pregnancies. :D
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We just never seem to loose all the baby fat from pregnancies.
rofl
thank you debbie. please let me reassure you the breed back - or indeed the first pregnancy - was not intentional. i would have never willingly put her through that - although, of course, we do love the babies now they're here!
she does have a mineral stone in the cage but i've read 1/2 of fruit flavoured tums is recommended? would that be ok? she does get quite a lot of vitamin c as they get spinach (i know some people don't recommend fresh veggies but when i got chinchi, the vet recommended to give him fresh spinach or kale and i've done that without any problems).
she gets supreme science nuggets and oxbow hay, as well as oats twice a week.
unfortunately i have no idea what she weighed before she got pregnant - we used to weigh them only at the vets and she'd never been before she gave birth. we're weighing them regularly now.
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::silly:: I'm not familiar with the Supreme Science Nuggets ... could you provide a URL to it's site, please?
Mastitis can be very dangerous, I would be a bit leery of allowing her to breed again. If it was something with her that caused it, it could reoccur. If it was caused from damage from the kits, I would not be as concerned about it happening again. It could have been caused by two kits fighting over the same tit, I have seen this happen and the mom lost the use of the tits on that side because of it. (Chin moms have two completely separate sets of mammary glands.) She did have a few litters after that, without issues. Had I not know for sure it was due to the kits, I would not have allowed her to breed again.
Breedback can also be dangerous ... if the kits are still in the cage with her (especially if they are still trying to nurse), they need to be in their own cages. From the time the kits started nursing her again, her "resources" were being divided between the litter she is carrying (if she is pregnant) and the litter she is nursing.
WARNING: If there are any male kits in the same cage as momma, they can get her pregnant. A male kit has the ability to impregnate a female at the tender age of 10 weeks old. Chinchillas will breed within the family. A female kit has the ability to become pregnant as early as 3 1/2 months old, but it is doubtful she could carry them to term and she could/probably would die trying. The kits born on April 6th are now 12 weeks old. Kits should be weened at 6 weeks, no later than 7 weeks of age, unless there are special circumstances ... like they were born premature and are still very small.
She could be pregnant, only time will tell. If not by her hubby, who is now in chinnie heaven, maybe by a male kit of her own, if it is still housed in the same cage with her.
Another warning: Spock and Ffynn need to be housed in two different cages. Males have been known to fight to the death for the privilege of breeding a female that is in season ... even if they can not get to the female, they can/will still fight over her.
Pippi, the female can stay in the same cage with her mom, at least until the next litter is born, if there is one on the way.
chinchi (the dad) ... was neutered and unfortunately had complications and died three weeks ago after a surgery to remove a puss capsule :'(
This is the reason I always am against neutering, unless it is a case of life and death.
Cuttlebones (find them in the bird section of the pet store) are a better source of calcium or even calcium tablets are OK. Keep in mind that for calcium to be properly delivered to the system and used, it needs to be in an acid environment ... Tums are antacids.
Small amounts of fresh veggies are OK, but only in small amounts and using those that do not cause gas, is very important to keep in mind. For humans gas is very uncomfortable ... for chinchillas, it can be deadly.
Hope this helps with some of your questions.
::wave:: Jo Ann
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thank you jo ann,
here's the supreme science link http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/pet-supplies/pet-food/specialist-pet-foods/supreme-science-selective-chinchilla-food-2k.html (http://www.seapets.co.uk/products/pet-supplies/pet-food/specialist-pet-foods/supreme-science-selective-chinchilla-food-2k.html)
she will not breed again - we had no intention of breeding her in the first place and the male kits have been separated from her at 9 weeks (would have done this sooner, however, ffynn didn't weigh enough) - the boys are currently housed together but will be separated when they reach 4 months as all the info i got re fighting was that it usually starts at 5 months onwards. they love each other at the moment and do everything together.
pippi is in with her mum and i intend to take her out 6 days before the due date.
unfortunately i had no option but to have chinchi neutered. he absolutely loved fluffy and he would not survived if i had to take him away from her. losing him was absolutely heartbreaking for me - still is - he was my first chin and until we got fluffy to be his friend, i was his mate. he would groom my face and was very affectionate but he didn't like anyone else. then we introduced him to fluffy (who we thought was a boy! she was sexed by two breeders) and all of his attention moved onto her - he didn't want me to stroke him anymore! he was very very happy with her and he missed her terribly when he had to be separated from her after the surgery.
i know you shouldn't have favourites, but he was mine.
tums, yes, they are antacids but that's because calcium carbonate is a basic salt which neutralises the stomach acid. the calcium carbonate is the only active ingredient in tums and is also the major inorganic cuttlefish constituent so it's pretty much the same stuff?
thanks again!
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::silly::
tums, yes, they are antacids but that's because calcium carbonate is a basic salt which neutralises the stomach acid. the calcium carbonate is the only active ingredient in tums and is also the major inorganic cuttlefish constituent so it's pretty much the same stuff?
As a matter of fact ... I just Googled them both ... yes, you are correct cuttlebones and Tums are both basically the same thing calcium carbonate ... today is not a waste ... I have learned something new! (I think everyone should learn at least one new thing, no matter how big or small, each day.) Cuttlebones a cheap form of Tums??? :P
No wonder I am not familiar with the Supreme Science Nuggets for Chinchillas ... they are a European based company. Does your bag break down the actual ingredients and the % of each ... they did not do so on the website. That would be interesting to know because they are a bit vague about them.
The fighting between males can start earlier, but as a rule, it starts between 4 months and 9 months to a year. When they are maturing and the breeding instincts take over.
Yes, it is regretable and very sad you and she have both lost him. But, he's crossed the Rainbow Bridge and is playing on the other side with all the other chinnies that went before him. You are told you should not have favorites, but there are some that just seem to touch your heart a little deeper than others ... mine was Mocha ... I cry even now when we talk about her, and she had been gone almost 10 years now, she was not my first chin, but is and always will be, my special little one out of the hundreds we have had over the many years ...
Keep us posted!
::wave:: Jo Ann
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thank you :) i hope he's found mocha and they have fun together. it's awful, absolutely awful. i had to take a week off work because i couldn't stop crying. thankfully my boss is very understanding and everyone was very nice when i came back. i miss him so much.
right, i have a bag of supreme science nuggets right here:
ingredients: cereals, alfalfa, vegetable protein extract, vegetables (plantain 2.5%, parsley 2.5%), seeds, oils and fats, salt, l-lysine, dl-methionine
typical analysis:
protein16%
oil 3%
fibre 19%
ash 7%
calcium 0.8%
phosphorus 0.4%
vitamin A 10000 iu/kg
vitamin D3 1000 iu/kg
vitamin E 50 mg/kg
copper 10 mg/kg
does that sound good? i believe they're the best nuggets available over here.
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the good news is that fluffy likes her supplements and just eats them as if they were treats. i do have to distract pippi as she wants everything mummy's got but she's happy to have a nugget instead.
now, on 30th of June, fluff weighed 776g. since then, her weight hovered between 772g and 773g. so now i'm not so sure she's pregnant. i do go through phases though - when she was nursing and wasn't putting any weight on, i was sure she wasn't pregnant. then she started putting weight on and about a week ago, i was pretty much convinced she was pregnant. now her weight stabilised i haven't got a clue.
one thing i've noticed though - she keeps stretching, just randomly, not when she wakes up. she never lies on her side (the only time i saw her asleep on her side was when we were bringing her home) so i can't use that one but she normally never stretches either and i've seen her do it a few times in the past few days.
she was standing upright earlier today - she usually lies on her front (only started doing this since she had babies) - and her tummy did look as if she had a bump but then the only female i can compare her to is three months old.
20 days to go... i'm just wondering, if she is pregnant but due to the stress she's been through (vet, handling due to mastitis, losing beloved chinchi) she doesn't give birth - when would you have her checked out just to make sure there's nothing inside? i've read some chins can be pregnant for 120 days but isn't that a little too long to wait?
sorry, i know i'm asking a lot of questions, i just want to make sure that i'm prepared for any scenario and can give her the care she needs.
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well, having said all that, she just weighed herself at 778/779g - just to show me!
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::silly::
the good news is that fluffy likes her supplements and just eats them as if they were treats. i do have to distract pippi as she wants everything mummy's got but she's happy to have a nugget instead
This is good ... as a matter of fact ... the biggest reward the chin gets, is when you give them a treat, you are also giving them your individual/undivided attention. Chinchillas love to be the center of attention, as a rule. ::nod::
If the kits were born on April 6, she could be anywhere from 86 to 92 days into her pregnancy. That would leave approximately 3 weeks ... the last month is when they gain the most weight the fastest ... I would keep an eye on her weight. If she continues to gain weight ... notify the vet that she may be pregnant and the approximate delivery date 107 to 120 days from April 6 ... Around the end of July or first of August (approximately). Average is 111 days which would have a delivery date of July 26.
If she is pregnant and they die now, she would probably be able to absorb them back into her system (if there is only one or two). If she carries them longer, each day she carries them is better for the kits ... as long as she can deliver them safely. If she carries them to close to the due date and then they die or for what ever reason she is not able to deliver them ... the more dangerous it is for her.
Don't panic, just be prepaired and make sure you let your vet know she could be close to due date, if she is pregnant. Usually kits are born without a problem, but on rare occasions, a vet is needed.
The one thing you want to watch for is when she starts stretching allot, then flattens out on the floor of the cage and you can see the contractions ... once it is to this starts ... she should deliver fairly soon ... if you see a kit that is part in and part out and she seems not to be able to get it out ... get her to the vet immediately. If she shows bright red blood, but no kits ... get her to the vet. Spotting is often a sign of trouble.
Keep us posted!
::wave:: Jo Ann
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thank you so much Jo Ann
i did speak to the vet last week and said she may be pregnant but i will let her know closer to the date so they can anticipate possible problems.
see, her first pregnancy - she had triplets! i'm really hoping that if she is pregnant, the number won't increase as i've not really heard many all happy quad stories (then again, i've been reading forums and people come there for advice so perhaps there's plenty of happy and healthy quads out there) - we are of course prepared to hand feed to help mummy out, we're quite experienced in this now! pippi was really good, she just took a bottle and gobbled down a reasonable amount in minutes. ffynn (skinny we called him!) took half an hour a go as he was only keen on little drops. i just want them all to be healthy.
thank you so much, i'll keep updating :)
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fluffy let me stroke her tummy last night (she doesn't normally let me do this, she usually pushes my hand away with her hands). she definitely has quite a large firm bump sticking out at the bottom of her tummy.
her weight still seems to hover between 770-780g.
i'm just wondering, should i give her some alfalfa hay? the nuggets she gets are alfalfa based, would that be a bit of an overkill?
i'm going to speak to the vet today as well and let them know the possible dates.
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fluff let me stroke her tummy today and i found an elongated nipple!!!
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she weighed 780g yesterday. today, she let me place my hand under her tummy and i could feel two very gentle kicks! (don't worry, i was careful not to press, just had my hand underneath her) - so i guess that means we're expecting!
the fact she let me do this is a sign in itself. she doesn't like to be picked up or touched on her tummy but during her first pregnancy, she let me pick her up a few times a week or so before giving birth - obviously i would not do that now but i didn't know she was pregnant then. i don't know whether it's because she's just getting sweeter or because she's thinking 'for goodness sake woman, i'm huge!!! huge!! can you not see how huge i am? you're a fool if you think i'm gonna move!'
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fluff let me stroke her tummy today and i found an elongated nipple!!!
Since this is not her first litter, the elongated nipple is not as important, but you should see the fur closest to the nipple fall away soon, if not already.
If you felt two kicks (not gas bubbles), it should be about two weeks or less before the new rug rats arrive.
I've had several sets of quads, all but one went well. I had one set of sextuplets, five made it. I think all six would have, had I realized there were still more to be born after #4, but I thought she was finished. When I found #5 he was already gone ... she was to tired to remove the birth sack. On #6, I removed the birth sack and removed fluid from the lungs. As it turned out, that one was the smallest born, but, ended up being the largest in the litter by week 4. And, yes, I did have my hands full ... but I was lucky two other moms that were weaning kits could and did take one each of the litter to help the momma chin contend with the other 3. I'll post a picture of her below ... this is her about 2 weeks before delivery ...
::wave:: Jo Ann
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aww she is beautiful!
haha i absolutely love the 'rug rats' ;D
i put my hand under her tummy again and there was quite a lot of movement, this felt more like kit moving around than kicking - sort of right at the top 'corner' of her bump. it was a lot stronger than the gentle kicks i felt before.
her due date is 26th of july (16 days to go) so that could mean that she'll be a little early?
i'm secretly hoping there will be a pink white as chinchi was a pink white but it doesn't really matter what colour they come out as long as everyone is healthy!
i am so glad to hear you've had quads without any trouble. i can't believe you had six! no wonder you thought she was done after #4!
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i have also noticed in the past few days that she's drinking a lot more. she normally doesn't drink much - you usually cannot tell that the water has gone down in her bottle but you most definitely can at the moment.
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::silly::
i put my hand under her tummy again and there was quite a lot of movement, this felt more like kit moving around than kicking - sort of right at the top 'corner' of her bump. it was a lot stronger than the gentle kicks i felt before.
her due date is 26th of july (16 days to go) so that could mean that she'll be a little early?
It could mean one of several different things ... (1) she may deliver earlier ... (2) she may have more than 2 ... if she does not deliver until the 16th or after or (3) the kit/kits are larger than normal or (4) she's got a baby kangaroo in there. :::grins::
i'm secretly hoping there will be a pink white as chinchi was a pink white but it doesn't really matter what colour they come out as long as everyone is healthy!
That's the best attitude to have! ::nod::
What color is momma?
An increase in her intake of water, as big as you seem to be describing, is a pretty good sign she could deliver soon. Usually the last 24 to 48 hours they will almost double their intake of water as to be able to produce enough milk for the kits. Has her water intake increased that much or close to it?
Fur falling from around the tits and constantly cleaning herself is also a sign that is apparent in the last 24 to 48 hours.
Watch for any panting, stretching and or flattening out on the bottom of the cage more so than usual.
::wave:: Jo Ann
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hahaha a little kangarooo :2funny:
but but but, she's only 96 days in! she can't deliver in 24 to 48 hours! she does drink noticeably more but i'm not sure if it's double what she'd normally have. i think i will mark the bottle but then, her daughter is in with her.
she is a standard grey and chinchi was a pink white. i think the colour calculator gives me 25% chance of pink white, 25% wilson white, 25% standard grey and 25% beige. all three babies are hetero beige - what are the chances with all these options?
pippi her daughter is in the cage with her and i was going to take her out on the 20th of july - i thought with her due date being 26th, even if she's 5 days early, that should cover it. can they be earlier than 5 days? the only day she could have got pregnant is the 6th of april so the due date is definitely right. don't fancy having pippi in when she has the babies.
she's not cleaning herself and i don't think the fur around the teats has fallen out yet.
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::silly:: It would not be impossible for her to deliver early ... if she delivers before day 108, the kits would be considered premature and you really don't want that ... to many possible complications ... but it is not unheard of. Don't know which is worse ... preemies or ones carried over time (over 120 days), sometimes they can be to large to pass through the birth canal. If she is not constantly cleaning and the fur has not fallen away, you are probably safe.
I like to keep an eye on mine starting day 105 ... rarely is one born that early.
Most kits are born naturally and come out normally, so I would not worry and the best thing is not to panic ... just be prepaired! ;)
Hope this helps!
::wave:: Jo Ann
*Expect the worst, but hope for the best ... that way, you can't be disappointed or surprised. ::nod::
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thanks jo ann,
i will take pippi out on day 104, just in case.
i know, i'm panicking. for months it's been a toss up between pregnant and not pregnant and now i'm really excited but i want them all to be healthy. you should have seen me when we found the first lot! i was hyperventilating!
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i think fluffy's fur around the nipples has started falling out! i can see a lot of black on her tummy so that must mean there are gaps and also i can see two parallel vertical lines on her tummy - they're not exactly underneath her armpits, they're further inwards if that makes sense.
i could feel an alien in her tummy moving quite vigorously today. 100 days in!
how do you remove the fluid from baby's lungs? just covering bases!
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It could mean one of several different things ... (1) she may deliver earlier ... (2) she may have more than 2 ... if she does not deliver until the 16th or after or (3) the kit/kits are larger than normal or (4) she's got a baby kangaroo in there.
turns out she was carrying a baby kangaroo! the little fatty is 54g! :D