Chinchilla Community Forums
Chinchillas => Health => Topic started by: chinca1 on October 25, 2018, 04:39:14 PM
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Hello,
I have a 14 year old chinchilla with no history of dental problems in the past. 14 days ago it appeared he poked his mouth with a piece of hay and immediately began to paw at it. He spent 5-10 minutes in obvious pain. His behavior and appetite was normal before this. He has not eaten hard foods since then (pellets, hay, treats, or use of the water bottle).
I’ve seen two vets. One of which is very reputable with exotic animals and the other is experienced as well. Both sedated him and could not find anything wrong with his teeth or gums. Both said the x-rays are fine (or some minor irrelevant misalignment). One vet did file down some sharp points on the molars but there was no sign of laceration on the cheek/tongue. She did not think these points are the underlying issue.
At first his appetite was strong but now he’s fighting me on the critical care.
Has anyone else seen this type of problem? A mouth issue but no evidence of the problem?
I appreciate any advice…
Thanks
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The minor irregular misalignment is the worrying thing. Spurs on teeth are in most cases secondary to something else going on with teeth. Did either vet mention root extension/elongation? I can't view the x-rays for some reason. Can you repost them?
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On the misalignment, the vet said chinchilla teeth are never perfect and the x-rays taken from the other vet didn't have his head positioned just right. At least that was the inference.
She said the roots look good. I double checked on that concern.
Here are the x-rays:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xoij6mkpm38p2jh/1405979-1-X-00000842-3.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3l02z5td7mlbje1/1405979-1-X-00000843-3.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fc5ozzba10yok37/1405979-1-X-00000844-3.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/o9e1f1hv7r61fsc/1405979-1-X-00000845-3.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mj1b9dux5llh7j0/1405979-1-X-00000846-3.JPG?dl=0
Thanks for taking a look.
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I still feel that the issue is teeth related. Have you had bloodwork carried out to rule out any infection or organ problems? Is your chinchilla still eating hay in normal quantity?
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I agree completely on the tooth/mouth issue. His other behavior is still indicating that for the most part. (He is chewing on a few hard items but sometimes I feel like he's doing that when he's in pain).
Plus, I am 90% sure the problem started instantly when he was grabbing at the new hay I was putting in his cage. There's a small chance he may have slowed down some of his eating for a few days leading up to this but the "hay incident" was followed instantly by him refusing all food/water bottles. I am just second guessing everything at this point.
I should have the chem panel, CBC, urinalysis, and fecal gram stain results today. Although, they typically would have called already if something came up in those tests.
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All I can suggest is that you keep watch for any of the teeth related symptoms, weepy eyes, drool, mouth pawing and much quieter, lethargic behaviour. Maybe another set of x-rays done by a chinchilla specific vet may help.
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Thanks. My 2nd vet who specializes in small animals just called and said the fecal gram stain test was not normal. Something about 20% rods. I'l need to get the details written down when I go to their office this afternoon. They want to put him on an antibiotic.
Something about the urinalysis was slightly off too. But the cbc and chem panel from blood was all normal.
I believe she wants to do full body x-rays in addition to re-doing the mouth if all else fails.
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I'm really sorry to hear this, and I truly feel for both you and your chin. Please would you post again with the details, as this can be of great help to other chin owners in the same situation.
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Thanks and I appreciate your support.
I will follow up for sure. I've only see 1 other post like this and the owner said their chinchilla start eating 2 months later and they never found the cause.
My best hope now is that his discomfort with his gums is healed (after poking himself with hay) but his appetite is gone given he has some kind of bacterial GI issue. I guess that could explain why he is also now refusing CC whereas he was taking it willingly the first week.
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You are very welcome ref support. Bless you both.
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Any update Einstein?
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No change unfortunately. But I am able to keep his weight maintained fairly well. We're on dose 2 of the antibiotic.
Is there any chance Chinchilla drool is cold, clear, neutral/no smell, and not slimy? i.e. like cold water.
As I was hand feeding him, I thought drool came out of his mouth but it honestly felt like water. Could have been from the syringe I guess.
I only bring it up because the only other time I ever saw this was day #1 of what I thought was the incident where he poked himself with hay. There was a lot of cold/clear liquid on his underside. It was to the point where I thought he must have come in contact with water and at first I was concerned with him getting too wet. I got the impression it must have rapidly squirted out of his mouth. Not a slow drool. As far as I know, it could have been condensation dripping from an AC vent or contact with his water bottle.
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It could be drool. Just keep monitoring and checking by feel under the jaw and down the chest.
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It could be drool. Just keep monitoring and checking by feel under the jaw and down the chest.
It seems like I caused the drool to come out when I was syringe feeding him. Otherwise, he's been looking good under there so far during these two weeks.
He is continuing to occasionally grab hay, bite it in half, spit it out, and rapidly grab another piece. For a moment, it looked like he was poking the same two pieces (one in each hand) into his mouth. It does appear he's frustrated based on my interpretation. We may have to go for round 3 of being sedated, get an inspection, and maybe better x-rays next week or so.
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What you describe ref hay eating, I have observed exactly the same behaviour with chins with teeth issues, and the frustration due to not being able to eat it. I still feel that you chin has an as yet undiagnosed teeth/root issue. Please keep us updated.
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So, with two chinchilla vets and one being extremely reputable, I believe this must be a problem that is hard to spot. I will call tomorrow to get into that 2nd vet again so that she can do x-rays herself including full body x-rays for the first time. I might not be able to get an appointment with her for 7+ days. She books up fast.
In the meantime, his activity level is normal. He is playful. But, we're at 100% forced feedings, which I feel bad about. However, we're keeping his weight up at a good level.
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It could be the very beginning of a root problem. BLS chins can read x-rays really well. Try PMing her and see if she can see anything.
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My vet prescribed Gabapentin to help with the pain. Going to get back in at the end of the week assuming he's not eating on his own by then.
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I hope you are able to find the cause of this issue. Please keep posting updates.
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Will do. I might be overreacting a bit but I am going to take him back in for a re-check on Friday. That's a little less than 2 weeks since he was last in but 21 days since this all started. I hate to put him under again but re-checking his mouth makes sense to me plus a new set of x-rays that include his whole body.
With any luck, this new pain RX I get today will make it where he actually wants to eat.
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I am pretty sure the first dose of Gabapentin helped. He drank a LOT of water from a bowl for the first time in 18 days. He also accepted some EFL mixed up on a spoon and really went after it. He had done that maybe twice when it was brand new to him last week but hasn't touched it since then.
I guess this helps prove he has an undiagnosed mouth/tooth/gums/jaw issue.
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I suspect there is an underlying tooth issue Einstein. It's heartbreaking to watch a chinchilla suffer this. I hope you are able to find the cause, and are able to make the right decision for your chin. Please keep us updated.
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I don't know that he is suffering in the typical way you'd expect. It seems he only has pain during and right after eating. Otherwise, his activity level is fairly normal. He wants out of his cage, begs to get out when someone walks by, and wants to do the normal things he does.
With the new pain medicine he's taking food and water willingly. Still no pellets or hay. I am going to be optimistic that one more look in his mouth and having my preferred vet take her own x-rays will turn up some evidence of a problem. It's really hard when you have two opinions and both turn up nothing found as being wrong.
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Quick note: he was just chewing on the bars and it looked like one of his top incisors was shorter than the other like part of it broke off. I could be wrong.
It's hard to see both sides at once. Previously, they were even, straight, and flat. Maybe he cracked an incisor during the incident where I thought he just poked his gums and it broke off sometime after my two vet visits. Now I have to clean everything and see if I can find a piece of tooth... assuming it really did break.
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This would account for the reluctance to eat. I hope it is something as simple as this. Is he getting the correct amount of calcium in his diet? What pellets and hay do you feed?
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I feed him Oxbow pellets and a variety of timothy hay. I have a rabbit who must only eat hay as his diet for medical reasons. So, I usually have a nice variety of farm fresh timothy hay on hand. Einstein mostly only eats the softer 2nd or 3rd cut.
I also buy small apple sticks that he chews on by the pound. He was going through a good number of them each week.
I could be wrong about what I saw in his mouth. I'll find a way to get a better look when he wakes up later. Two more days until the follow up vet appt.
Whatever it is, it would most likely be something hard to see visually or hard to detect on x-rays. I feel pretty comfortable that between the two different vets I have the right expertise helping me.
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Both the pellets and hay you feed are top quality, so I don't feel a calcium issue is present. Other than a teeth/root issue, possibly age related, I am at a loss what to suggest. The teeth issues I've experienced have been manifest in far younger chins, been genetic in origin, and ended in euthanasia. Please keep posting as things hopefully become clearer. You are both in my thoughts.
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Thanks for keeping us in your thoughts.
With the new pain RX, he's taking CC/EFL on a spoon every few hours. It's an entirely different situation in terms of his willingness to eat. The metacam just wasn't cutting it before apparently. I even think his activity level is even higher.
I've read cracks in the incisors don't show up on x-rays before. Other than that, I don't know what else is hard to spot. Maybe we get lucky. I recall one post where their chinchilla started eating after 2 months and lived another 6 years.
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I sincerely hope this is the case with your chinchilla.
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Any update on Einstein?
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He's been the same... improved with the pain medicine. Eager to eat soft foods. Not eating any hard foods still. He is still been very active.
We're going back to the vet in a few hours for more x-rays most likely.
Thanks for checking!
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You are in my thoughts. Please keep updating.
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Day 21.
We got another set of x-rays and this time it included his whole body. She said his teeth are perfect. His jaw looks okay too. Heart looks good. A little spondylosis but not relevant here. The GI bacterial infection is down from 20% to 5%. She doesn't see anything wrong with his incisors. My view was obscured too much when I tried to look earlier this week.
Her recommendation is that we get a CT scan from the university's exotic vet clinic. Of course, he could recover on his own, just like someone else's did on this forum.
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This is indeed a strange scenario. It's great news about his teeth and jaw though. It may be that for whatever reason he will not eat solid food will pass and his eating will simply kick back. Please keep updates coming.
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He hasn't eaten much since being put under again. It seems like it had a greater effect this time. He was more groggy that evening and his appetite isn't quite 100%.
However, I reviewed the camera footage of him last night and it appears he was nibbling on hay. I can't tell for sure because the camera resolution isn't good enough in the dark. He had been previously biting hay and just throwing it down. I can't tell if that was the case here but he was spending quite a bit more time with the hay than previously.
I will change out the hay this evening and take some pictures before I leave it.
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That is a good start. Around 24 hours or more to recover from anaesthetic.
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There's been no further evidence of him chewing on hay. He did chew on a toy last night and he was gesturing like something got stuck or irritated near his incisors. He was fine 2-3 mins afterwards.
Otherwise, we're approaching 4 weeks since eating hard foods. He seems to be 100% in terms of activity and does not appear to be in any pain although he is on two medications. You really wouldn't know there was a problem. His appetite is very good. He'll eat every few hours if offered CC or EFL. I am still wrapping him up for CC once or twice a day based on how much he eats freely. Although at this point, he even fights me less with the forced feeding.
Still waiting to get the details on a possible CT scan although I am hoping it becomes unnecessary.
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Keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers. Please keep on updating xx
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How are things progressing?
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No change. Today is 4 weeks. But, on the bright side he is acting 100% normal and does not seem to be in any pain. He's just eating soft foods only.
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Probably has dental problems that are not easy to detect.
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Probably has dental problems that are not easy to detect.
Do you have any idea what the possibilities are? i.e. not detected easily via x-ray or visual exam?
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Last night things changed. He has been spending more time during the day sleeping on his side than normal for the last few days but otherwise seemed fine during his normal awake hours. Last night, instead of wanting to get out and play, he just laid his head down on its side and slept. There was more tooth crunching as if he was in pain. Same for this morning. He normally wants to get out in the morning. Not today.
He is still eating CC/EFL from a bowl and taking water from a syringe. His weight was normal last night. He had been pooping normal but it's been smaller since last night.
I am waiting to hear back from our vet about a change in pain medicine. I am going to a 3rd vet day after tomorrow for a CT. It's a university with a veterinary program with a small animal practice that was recommended by our vet.
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I still believe this is a tooth/root issue that is beginning to escalate.
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Yeah - agreed. The CT scan should show us exactly what the problem is and we can figure out what to do from there.
The only other odd thing is his weight is at a new high. He was around 590-610g throughout this ordeal down from 625g when it started. Just now he weighed almost 650g and his poop has gotten smaller. I don't know what to make of that. I am certain he was no more than 610g yesterday. Since I started weighing him twice a day I have never seen a swing that large.
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This is indeed strange. The sooner you get a scan carried out, the better. I sincerely hope that something can be done for your chin. Please keep updating.
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We just need to hold on until Thu. First day I can get the scan.
I am also hoping to hear back from my vet about some pain RX adjustment/improvement.
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We've got buprenex which I understand has it's own set of a problems. But, worse case if he's miserable tonight I can give him some. I plan on making sure his GI system is working well first.
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I'm taking one of my boys to the vet's tomorrow for suspected teeth issues.
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I'm taking one of my boys to the vet's tomorrow for suspected teeth issues.
Prayers to you and yours.
My 24 hours of problems seem to have subsided except for a slightly weaker appetite. Oddly enough, I weighed him several times on different scales and he was remarkably heavier each time during this period. This morning he's back to normal weight and acting more normal. He was actually starting to behave more normal last night.
We'll be addressing the underlying tooth/mouth issue tomorrow at the 3rd vet.
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Bless you both. I'll update tomorrow ref my boy.
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I lost my boy this morning. I feel utter desolation.
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Oh no, I am so sorry for your loss. You are both in our prayers here.
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Thank you. My concern now his for his cagemate as to wether he will cope.
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Any update on your boy?
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I hope your cage mate is doing okay today.
My vet visit had mixed results. Nothing in his mouth appeared so serious that he would stop eating completely, in her opinion. She said it's not often that a 13-14 year old chinchilla just gets a major dental disease all of the sudden. No issues with the roots of the teeth growing the wrong way.
However, the 5 weeks of not grinding his teeth down might have caused his incisors to overgrow a bit. It's possible the original irritation healed up but then we transitioned into the side effect of the critical care only diet. There was also another point on a molar.
She did find some moderate misalignment of teeth but we knew that before. What's new info to me is she said the distance between the lower sets of teeth and the tongue was not wide enough. Trimming was required. That could be the problem. It wasn't advanced where the tongue was lacerated, etc.
So, we just need to get through the recovery and see what happens.
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I'm so pleased that there was no root issues. The misalignment you mention may mean that regular trimming is required, and this is extremely traumatic for a chin. It is a very strange situation, as dental issues more often than not occur in a much younger animal. I've reserved a lovely mosaic chin to pair with my bereaved boy.
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How is Einstein getting on?
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He seemed more energetic last night than he has been in awhile. His appetite for CC was good as well. He was also putting his nose in the hay basket sniffing around for the first time in awhile.
This morning he hasn't wanted to eat much so I will force feed him shortly. Hopefully he recovers from the trimming shortly. The vet said the type of trimming she did should not be very painful.
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How are things progressing?
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He is hungry and eating CC/EFL on his own. Normal behavior. I am thinking he does not want to eat pellets and hay anymore. I just started mixing pellet dust with the EFL plus water. I also sprinkled dry EFL on his hard pellets.
The only sign of mouth pain, if I am reading it correctly, is he kind of recoils when he starts eating his critical care mix but only for a second or two.
Otherwise, he ate 1 oxbow pellet (just one) after I handed it to him. Would not go for a 2nd.
He has also eaten a few slivers of shredded wheat, which he would not do previously.
We're still on both pain meds. I may try to back these off and see if shows signs of pain.
Not sure what to do from here...
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How is Einstein getting on? Sorry fr not enquiringly earlier, but I've had a lot to deal with over the last couple of weeks. The mosaic boy I reserved is home now and pairing well with his new friend.
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I'm glad the mosaic boy is bonding well. That's good to hear.
I got some Sherwood Chinchilla pellets on Saturday and he immediately took a few bites. He hasn't tried any Oxbow since this all started.
A few days later I reduced his amount of EFL/CC and overnight I believe he started eating hay for the first time. However, the next morning I believe he had mouth pain or discomfort with visible symptoms for the first time in a few weeks while eating his EFL. So, I increased the EFL/CC and will try reducing again tomorrow night so I can monitor him the next day.
Otherwise, behavior has been perfectly normal and happy. The signs of eating pain only lasted for a few minutes in total and was over.
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How's Einstein? My mosaic is settling really well and enjoying chin scritches. He loves his food too.
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Glad he is eating and being social.
I don't really know how Einstein is doing honestly. He's still behaving normally (playing, activity level) but there's still some tooth grinding/noise.
I have hay that has some herbs mixed in from the woman that makes EFL. I think he is eating the herbs but possibly not the hay. I have other fresh hay options for him that he's not touching. On the bright side, he is eating small slivers of shredded wheat albeit very slowly and carefully. There's no more picking at pellets unfortunately. I am trying to slowly reduce the amount of wet food I am making for him. It's just going slowly.
I am able to recognize some mouth gestures he does when just sitting on me. He's making an O shape with his mouth and moving it. It's like what you might do if you have too much peanut butter in your mouth. I am wondering if this aligns with the theory that there's not enough room in his mouth for his tongue to move freely enough. So, if anyone else reads this in the future, check into the angle of the teeth and distance between the lower teeth for free tongue movement.
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So, he will take a piece of shredded wheat now without fail. He'll also eat a hard chinchilla safe treat (it's like a cookie texture). I am thinking he's preferring the soft/wet food mixes vs. pellets/hay. It's really hard to do (personally) but I guess I will need to further reduce the EFL/CC. He's not losing weight but he's only getting ~2-3 teaspoons of EFL a day. It mixes up into a small 2" dish that I am filling 3 times a day of which I give more in the AM hours.
I also need to start reducing the gabapentin, as I've read it can be addictive as well as the meloxicam because long term it can cause kidney damage. I honestly don't know if he even needs it anymore. I'm going to have to reduce and see what happens.
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How's Einstein?
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Still up and down. He's been almost all good but it looks like he has pain shortly after eating small amounts of hay. On the bright side, he tried to eat that hay on his own during the day when he has access to critical care. We might have to go back for a 2nd trimming. It's just unfortunate since he went ~13 years without any dental trimmings.
Appreciate you asking.
Is your new boy bonding well?
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I do hope Einstein is continuing to hold his own, and remains stable over the Christmas period and beyond. Thinking of you both xx
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Thanks. Hope yours are healthy and well over the holiday too.
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Do you have any update on Einstein? I do hope all is well with you both.
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The good news is that he's eating some hay throughout each week. It's not quite every day and not a lot of volume. He won't eat any pellets except for one kind that upset his stomach. I think I am having trouble weaning him off the wet foods at this point. He's also acting perfectly normal. He's extremely energetic and you would not think he's 13-14 years old.
It's been two and a half months since the trimming and we are going back in this week. They wanted him back after 2 months. I'm not sure if he needs more trimming but since he hasn't been eating enough hay for such a long time, I assume he might. My theory is I can be more aggressive about taking away the wet food once I know there's no medical reason he can't chew comfortably. I sure hate to put him under anesthesia because of the risk but I think this is the best way to go. His weight is up and he seems healthy so I hope he will pull through the procedure.
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I'm so pleased that things seem to be going well for this wonderful boy. Please keep us updated xx
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Any updates or information on Einstein? Been wondering how you are both getting on xx
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We went in for another trimming and it set us back a few weeks in terms of eating hay, pellets, or getting off the pain medicines.
We're almost off all the pain medicine right now and he is eating some hay and a few pellets the last week. I need to try to wean him off the critical care again. I'm still feeding him breakfast, lunch, and dinner. He's eating some on his own overnight right now but not every night.
So, it's basically the same old story which, on the bright side, is good because he's alive and seems to be acting normal. I am less optimistic that he will ever go back to his normal eating habits but you never know.
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Please keep us updated. Einstein has found a place in my heart for sure.
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Sadly Einstein passed away today. The saddest part is that we actually had his tooth problem under control compared to where we started. We got a solid month of hay and pellet consumption recently for the first time since this started. I thought he might make it for the long haul. We were almost back to normal and things were getting better as each month went on whereas I thought it would get worse each month.
After about 3 months since the last trimming, he went in for a proactive trimming (more trimming was always expected to fine tune things) and the vet nicked an artery. He lost a lot of blood and his heart stopped a few times. They could not bring him back. I got to see him after his heart stopped twice and I think he recognized me. He was checked in for observation overnight and died a few hours after I had to leave him.
I can say that with his particular type of malo (the way his specific bite was misaligned), he had a good quality of life the past several months. His teeth were not growing inward and he never even drooled from it. Yes, we had a few trimmings and most of the time the recovery was not very prolonged with 1 exception.
His death was an unfortunate accident or mistake based on how you look at it.
I appreciate everyone's support here over the past few months.
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I am so, so sorry. You are in my thoughts and prayers.
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Thank you.