Chinchilla Community Forums
Breeders => General Breeder Chat => Topic started by: hope on November 15, 2006, 11:34:05 AM
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I was not intending on buying in any new chins next year as with only pair breeding I have as many males as people using much bigger set ups.
Next year I intend to show every kit I get & keep the best kits to eventually pair together when they are old enough.
Do you think I am misguided in thinking I don't need to buy in more stock at this point?
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If your current herd is producing show winning animals you don't need to bring in new animals and can use the show winners from this year to breed next year. Its actually much more fun when you begin breeding animals from your own herd. There is so much more pride in having a show winner stim from your own lines rather than from animals you bought from someone else. You will only need to bring in more animals if your current babies are not what you were hoping for, if you want to grow bigger faster, or when you have something you want to breed to certan type of mate and you don't have one.
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Thank you chinclub. :)
I am hoping most of the kits from these pairs will be high quality & will do well at the shows - but these are new pairings & I have not yet had a litter from any of them.
I did have chins off showlines before but suddenly earlier this year my big 970g show girl stopped eating & I was gutted when I felt bumps on her lower jaw & the vet agreed she had mallocclusion & it was kinder to put her to sleep - unfortunately I had bought 2 other chins from the same person & this affected them too :'(
When I contacted the breeder I was told both parents had mallocluded & I checked with the breeder to see if the 3rd chin could be affected & unfortunately found one of her parents had malloccluded too!
I still have the male & he is showing no signs of developing it so far but obviously I took him out of breeding straight away.
I only have a small set up compared to many of you & was devastated to lose 3 of my ribbon winnning breeding chins.
Over the rest of the year I have been buying in more stock & pairing my new chins up & am looking forward to future litters.
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When I contacted the breeder I was told both parents had mallocluded & I checked with the breeder to see if the 3rd chin could be affected & unfortunately found one of her parents had malloccluded too!
I think it's really unfortunate that the breeder didn't contact YOU when the parents maloccluded to advise you to pull the offspring from breeding and prepare you for the possibility of them maloccluding as well. As a responsible breeder, I would make every effort to let someone know if there was a possibility that they might suffer through the affects of malocclusion.
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As a responsible breeder, I would make every effort to let someone know if there was a possibility that they might suffer through the affects of malocclusion.
This subject makes me mad sometimes, because some breeders take chances.
I purchased a new chin last year, and with in a couple of months the breeder contacted me to tell me not to breed him. His grandfather had maloccuded, so his Dad was taken out too.
The thing is some say the defect has to come from both sides to effect the kits, so another breeder who has the another off spring says she will continue to breed him with a better quality chin with no malocclusion in it's back ground.
I think that's taking chances, and I have seen them so sick with this that I wouldn't take any chances and will not breed the one I bought for anything.
How many chins are out there that are carriers???????? How could you tell?
He cost me a fine sum,a beautiful tov ebony, then I had to pay to have him shipped in.
The breeder will replace him but I still have to pay for the flight. As it's just as cheap to ship 4 as one, I haven't even taken her up on it yet.
We have to stop this gene in it's tracks and the only way is not to breed any chin that any relative has maloccluded.
It's us small hobby pet breeders that need to be more responsible about what chins we breed.
Bad coloring or poor quality fur is one thing, but maloclusions is a death sentence with so much pain & heart ache.
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::nod:: As a responsible breeder, I would make every effort to let someone know if there was a possibility that they might suffer through the affects of malocclusion.
I totally agree with you.
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My view is that if a problem appears in your line those chins should be removed from breeding immediately & anyone who has chins off that line should be contacted immediately so they can do the same.
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The thing is some say the defect has to come from both sides to effect the kits, so another breeder who has the another off spring says she will continue to breed him with a better quality chin with no malocclusion in it's back ground.
That is bad. Its true that if the other parent isn't a carrier the babies will not come down with the disease, however they will be carriers and I am sure the breeder won't put that on the pedigree card! So someone could buy those chinchillas and breed them to other carriers and those babies will eventually malloclude. But since most cases don't show up until after 2 years of age..sometimes after 5 years...think of how many babies they could have produced that were then sold to unsuspecting buyers.
This is such a nasty, sneaky disease. That is why we can not stress enough that people should NOT breed any chinchilla that they do not know the background of. One mistake could cause a lot of chinchillas to suffer a horrible death.
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:::(((
The thing is some say the defect has to come from both sides to effect the kits, so another breeder who has the another off spring says she will continue to breed him with a better quality chin with no malocclusion in it's back ground.
It is the "some say" that needs to jump out at everyone ... I wonder if the "some" in the "some say" are the ones wanting to make money, not quality????? >:(
I would never buy a chinchilla from that person ... a breeder's reputation is only as good as his/her chinchillas. Some will ignore the "possible problems", but this is where it can become a major problem. ::tickedoff::
New breeders (and some older ones) think it will not come back on them, but the word does get around eventually. We can all make mistakes, but how we handle those mistakes is what determines our worth.
The biggest problem is the one that affects the chinchillas ... they are the ones that really suffer! :flames: We are their guardians. They give us love, unconditionally, we need to do the same. If they should no longer be able to be a breeder, for what ever the reason, then, let it become your pet, or a pet to someone who will care for it and give it the individual attention it deserves. It didn't ask to be brought into this world ... if we breed it, it is our responsibility! :o
OK ... off my soap-box, for now. :blush2:
::wave::
Jo Ann
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A few people in the UK have said to me that they believe some chins are carriers & that both parents would need to carry it for it to express itself.
My chin suddenly developed malocclusion when she was 26 months old.
I also have her litter brother who I took out of breeding as soon as I found out & so far at 29 months old he is showing no signs of it. His jaw is smooth & he is eating well so I am hoping he is a carrier & that the 3 offspring he sired will be carriers. :'(
In this instance both grandparents on the fathers side & the father had all developed malocclusion & had to be put to sleep...the mother has not developed it yet.
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:doh: Below is just one reason why we should keep in touch with those who get chinchillas from us.
If the breeder does not keep in touch with you, if a problem that could be hereditary arises ... contact them and let them know!
Hope ... My chin suddenly developed malocclusion when she was 26 months old.
I also have her litter brother who I took out of breeding as soon as I found out & so far at 29 months old he is showing no signs of it. (... the 3 offspring he sired will be carriers.)
In this instance both grandparents on the fathers side & the father had all developed malocclusion & had to be put to sleep...the mother has not developed it yet.
Breeding an unknown carrier to unknown carrier ...
Jamie Its true that if the other parent isn't a carrier the babies will not come down with the disease, however they will be carriers and I am sure the breeder won't put that on the pedigree card! So someone could buy those chinchillas and breed them to other carriers and those babies will eventually malloclude. But since most cases don't show up until after 2 years of age..sometimes after 5 years...think of how many babies they could have produced that were then sold to unsuspecting buyers.
A general statement for all chinchilla owners ...
If you know you have a kit/chinchilla that is a carrier ... do not breed him! Do not sell them to someone that breeds or intends to breed! Sell as "pet only - do not breed." Tell the person why. Get a contract signed so it can not fall back on you. Have it to where if it is put into breeding, you have the right to claim it back ... without having to refund the money. This is the only thing that would stop some people from saying they won't, then do it anyway. Protect your chins, yourself and future generations!
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Debbie I have just been reading through this post again & noticed you put that 'It's us small hobby breeders that need to be more responsible' & I want to point out that the person I bought from was not a small hobby breeder or a novice & malocclusion is not just a problem in pet lines caused by people breeding animals with no history together & the bigger well respected breeders also need to behave responsibly too & let people they have sold to know.
Teeth problems in the high quality successful show lines do not seem to get discussed on the forums & occasionally when odd references are made by individuals who have found themself in the situation I found myself in they tend to get looked at by hundreds of people but answered by hardly anybody & dissapear down the posts like a bad smell.
I think it is disgusting for anyone to knowingly breed from carriers & it really rankles me when people do not inform others that something as serious as malocclusion is in the line.
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Debbie I have just been reading through this post again & noticed you put that 'It's us small hobby breeders that need to be more responsible' & I want to point out that the person I bought from was not a small hobby breeder or a novice & malocclusion is not just a problem in pet lines caused by people breeding animals with no history together & the bigger well respected breeders also need to behave responsibly too & let people they have sold to know.
Hi Hope,
I think the big ranchers and larger breeders are very aware of what they are doing. They do their utmost to protect their investment, have to love what they do, and are genguinely concerned about their animals and what they are producing.
In my opinion these problems in genetics are being over looked by the smaller breeders whom just put a pairs together and sell the kits.
I use the term smaller, like myself, because we have just as big a role to play in the future chinchilla population, though many just don't see it that way. Things like this just goes to show you how important it is.
I'm not sure how better to say it, and maybe it's not really the numbers. Then when I look at how many the ranchers have it shows.
Sorry if it came off wrong, you know I wasn't refereeing to you :blush2: and I hate the term back yard as that hints of size as well.
::angel2::
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Hi Debbie, I did not really think you were having a dig at me - it is just that this can happen to anyone no matter who they are & unless people who have purchased chins are told about what has happened it just perpetuates the problem.
If I had been told a year ago the 2nd litter would not have been born.
I did behave responsibly & as soon as I came back from the vet I contacted the 2 people I sold to & told them what had happened & I offered to pick up chin & refund the money but of course the male has a lovely home as a pet with a mum & son who adore him & I was & am keeping in touch with them.
The other litter was 2 girls & the breeder is keeping them together at her place & she fully understands they must never be bred from.
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See it's up to us , who care. Some just don't seem too.
You maybe right on the size, as most Ranchers breed for pelts, how would they know who was a carrier?
We didn't invent the chinchilla, so the gene has been there always and the pets we have today came from the ranchers of yesterday.
Some of these chins that have turned up with malocclusion are indeed from show winning lines.
We have no controle over what others do, but there has to be some way to control the spread of this gene.
No one wants to say anything bad about another breeder, some love the rumor mills, it's a touchy one.
There has to be a way. ::think::
It's just to hard a way for a darling chinchilla die, and it seems to hard for some to understand.
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as most Ranchers breed for pelts, how would they know who was a carrier?
Even pelt ranchers are always trying to improve the herd and save their best offspring each year to put back into breeding. Those chinchillas will then breed for years so genetic problems would still be found.
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::silly::It is up to all of us to stop breeding a chinchilla when we find there is a problem that might be passed down from generation to generation or one that might be contagious.
It does not matter if you get a chinchilla from a friend or from a rancher ... if there is a problem ... notify them!
Different breeders ... small and large ... that I have talked to over the years ... want to know, so they can take the parents out of breeding. No reputable breeder would knowingly breed a chinchilla that would pass problems down the line.
As soon as a problem is found, it needs to be reported to the breeder. If that breeder does not take the chinchilla out of breeding ... then you know not to buy from them again.
Keep in mind one thing before you open your mouth ... did you keep chewblocks and lava stones in the cage at all times to help the chin keep it's teeth ground down to the proper length? If not, it could be your fault.
::wave::
Jo Ann
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Even pelt ranchers are always trying to improve the herd and save their best offspring each year to put back into breeding. Those chinchillas will then breed for years so genetic problems would still be found.
Thanks Jamie, that's the way I've been reading it, but as I have never been around any my info comes from what I read.
No reputable breeder
A reputation can seem great. :-\
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as most Ranchers breed for pelts, how would they know who was a carrier?
Even pelt ranchers are always trying to improve the herd and save their best offspring each year to put back into breeding. Those chinchillas will then breed for years so genetic problems would still be found.
::silly::Keep in mind that the "pelt ranchers" pelt when the chinchilla is 7 to 10 months old ... long before any malocclusion would become evident ... even if both parents or just one parent is a carrier ... they would not know, unless they kept that chin for breeding and did not pelt it. When pelting was profitable, there was really no worry about the teeth ... it was the fur that had to be perfect, not the chinchilla. Now, with pelting going down and chinchillas as pets is going up ... they will have to change their way/fame of mind about raising chinchillas. No longer will it "not matter", as a pet that is expected to live 5 to 25 years, hereditary problems do matter now ... even to the big ranchers. For them to stay in business and continue to have a good name, it will have to matter.
We, as novice breeders, (less than 20 years) have to realize we can be making just as big a mess of the future for the chinchillas by to much interbreeding and cross breeding of the mutations. This in itself will weaken the genes of the chinchilla and it's future.
We all live in glass houses.
Off my soap box ...
::wave::
Jo Ann