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[Jo Ann]

Almost forgot ...

When she delivers, watch what she does with each afterbirth. 
She should eat part of each one of them, but not all of all of any of them ... 4 or 5 would be to many ...
BUT ...
If she does NOT eat part of one or two of the afterbirths ...
Watch carefully the kits who belong to those afterbirths she does not eat  any of.
This is often a warning sign that there may be something wrong with the kit.
Sounds crazy, but I've seen it happen that way many more times than not.

 
Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

Ill keep a look out. Ive heard that eating all the afterbirths is too much protein for them.  Since they are not carnivores, it hurts their digestive system to be eating it completely.
With her last litter I hadnt found any afterbirths, so Im assuming she ate them all.  But I was not there for the actual birth, but practically within maybe an hour of her delivering.
I hope Im home for the birth, It makes me nervous that they can have them anytime, usually early morning when Im either sleeping or at work.
She had them on a weekend last time, Im praying she does the same this time.
Especially with the 4 or 5 babie.

Ok, so this C Section thing.  If the first baby turns out to be breeched, would it be necessary to do surgery?
What if the first one comes out fine and the rest are breeched?
Im just asking because I dont know how many chinchilla C Sections my exotic vet has had experience with.
I asked the doctors I work for, and all 4 of them said they wouldnt attempt it because of their lack of experience with anesthesia and chinchillas. I mean we have protocols for small animal surgerys and anesthesia, but they are still nervous about the idea.  Ill have to call my critters vet and see if shes had any experience with them at all.  If it was necessary.  I just want to know what it would take to make a section necessary, so I can pass the word to my vet so she will know more of what shes dealing with.

[Jo Ann]

     Wow!  Can you think of an easier question? 

     You have hit me with one that is impossible for me to answer.

      It would have to be you and your vet to make that decision, should it come to that, at that time.  The experience of your vet and her belief in herself that she can do it safely, and the circumstances at the time would be what your vet would probably base her recommendations on.  I would think that she would not do it unless there was no other way to save mom and/or the kits.

      Have you talked with your vet about the options that would be available to you?  It would be best if the two of you could talk and you could give her the options that are acceptable to you before hand.   We rarely think clearly and objectively in a crisis.  She will probably ask you, if push comes to shove, and she must decide one or the other ... which does she save ... the mom or the kits?  If she does not ask, tell her anyway.  If mom does not make it, it will be touch and go for the kits ... on the other side ... chinchillas do not react to surgery in a good way and you could loose her anyway.

      I have never had to have one of my females have a C-section.  Usually this is not done unless the mother is in danger of loosing her life.  When a C-section is done, the mom can not safely keep her kits with her and care for them.

       Normally, the reasons for a C-section would be if one is breach and know that their are other kits yet to be born, that could not be extracted other wise.   If one is breach, more than likely, the vet would try to help it out naturally.  If this was not possible, and if time is of the essence, the vet may want to extract the one that is breach in a more forcefull way (it would not make it) to give the others a chance to be born naturally and live.  At this point, it is a decision that has to be made quickly.  If one is breach, not only is it's life in danger, but so are the other kits and the mom, you have to consider all of them.  The kits have to be delivered in a timely manner, other wise, they can all die.

     Because of the fact that they are full or almost full-term, it would be next to impossible for the mom to absorb them back into her system, should they die before delivery and were not delivered or extracted.  This situation would almost give the vet no other options, that I know of at this time.  You do not want to have to work with the massave infection that would be inside of the mom, due to a dead kit/kits, if they are left there.

     The other time that a C-section would be necessary is if the kit/kits are to large to be born, due to the natural size or something like Siamese twins.

      What were the birthweights of the 3 from her other litter?

      Now, about the afterbirth.  Any time I know there are 3 or more kits, I will let the mom nibble a little on each afterbirth (because it does contain things she needs at this time), but, I will remove the afterbirth as soon as she lays it down.  Again, I first watch to see if she will nibble on each to have a little "heads-up" warning to watch that particular kit.   They will usually smell it, then eat it, or smell it, then throw it down.

     Always watch for and count the number of afterbirths, it should be the same number as the number of kits born ... unless their are twins ... twins would be two kits born at the same time in the same sac.  Save the afterbirths until you know the kits are OK and the vet does not need to examine them.

      There is (or at least use to be) a forum for vets that I think is based in California, I believe they are in with California Chins.  If I were you, under the circumstances, I would head your vet in that direction.  I know they have helped my vet many, many times when there has been a problem she did not have the answer to.

      Jen, you are asking hard questions, but I will not sugar-coat any answer I give you.  To me, that would be an insult to your intelligence.  I wish more would ask, so that they would not be in a total shock, when something happens.  Maybe this thread will give others answers they are afraid to ask.

       I am known as a pestomistic optimist.  In short that means, I expect the worst, but hope for the best.  That way if something does happen, I am prepaired ... if it does not happen, then I am ecstatic because I know what could have been.

       
    Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

I do appreciate all your help with answering my questions and giving me insight to your knowledge.

I hope those that are too scared to ask any questions will look here and learn something.

I just checked on her and she is in a different spot each time I go in there.  She isnt in her bed at the moment, but lying in the pine shavings.  They are smaller shavings than the others I buy and somewhat softer.  She is laying on her belly, but her rear is on its side.
This morning when I went in she was in the front of the cage laying next to her bed but almost curled in a circle with her head near her abdomen/ rear.  Ive never seen  her in a position like this before.
Weighed 878.8 grams last night.

[QTPie61282]

Kiwi hasnt moved from that one spot all day.  The only time she did was just now when I went in to clean and feed.
But right back in the spot she went.  Her belly is very hard and tender feeling.  I can feel their little bodies inside when I gently rest my finger on her abdomen near her vulva.

[Jo Ann]

How's Kiwi doing today?  Maybe she was just waiting for Mother's Day, to present you with some special presents.      I will keep my fingers crossed that is the situation.   

When she is on the bedding ... how is her breathing?  Short, rapid and shallow? or Long slower deeper breaths?  Or just normal?   Flattening out and the change in breathing is often the earliest sign of labor with chinchillas.

Can you feel any moisture in her fur?  Often you will know when the sac breaks for the first kit by watching for this.  Also, she will start cleaning herself constantly.

Stubborn little ones, aren't they?  But, with this many, the longer she carries them, the better it is for them.  Quads and quints are usually small.  Kits usually put on most of their weight in the last 3-4 weeks.

Keep us posted!  I think she should be very close now. 

You thought her due date would have been April 14th because it had been 111 days since the last litter arrived.  Now it is day 141 (since the last litter was born), - 111 = +30 days.  A chin's cycle is usually 28 to 35 days ... that puts her very close to due, if she got pregnant during the 2nd cycle after the kits were born.   

 
Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

She is doing good today.  Now laying in her bed again with her head resting on the edge of it.
Her breathing seems short and somewhat faster than a normal resting chins rate. 
I didnt feel her for any moisture today, Ill check later tonight when she is more awake and when I go to feed her, this is usually when I weigh her too.

I was hoping for today as well, so your thinking at least 5 days left since their cycle is 28-35 days?  I told myself if they werent here by today, than she would probably have them next sunday.  Im going based on the fact that she had them on a sunday last time and it was exactly on her 111th day of me putting her with her mate.
so she was like clock work.

I will weigh her later and update.  So far she has gained 141.8 grams in a few days short of a month.  I forgot to weigh her yesterday.  Today would be exactly 4 weeks since I thought she was "due".  She is drinking a good amount of water.  Im going to fill it all the way up today and mark the bottle with a marker to see how much shes drinking.

[QTPie61282]

She weighs 884.5 today.  Gained 147.5 grams in exactly 4 weeks.
I had her running around today and she loved it but kept jumping back up into her
cage to lay down.
She is starting her stretching and laying flat more often and her water bottle was a quarter down
from what I filled it with this AM.
So I wish it wasnt so late I really want to be there when it happens in case she needs
my help.
I dont want to risk being away but I have to work at 7:30 in the am tomorrow and I really
dont want her to have them while Im at work.

Where can I find the Goats Milk, at the grocery store?  Liquid or powder? Just so I am prepared tomorrow incase she delivers.

[Jo Ann]

     I figured she would enjoy the exercise ... the fact you have the cage where she can go back to it and rest any time she needs to is great!  By returning to it off and on, she is pacing herself ... this is good.

 

She is starting her stretching and laying flat more often and her water bottle was a quarter down
from what I filled it with this AM.

   

     Sounds good to me ... hopefully she they will be good little kits and wait till you get there. 

     From the first to the last could take anywhere from an hour to 5 hours ... her body needs to rest between kits, but they do not always co-operate there.

     Goat's milk is in a can.  Most grocery stores carry it, our local WalMart has it.    Watch out for sticker shock, it is expensive when you first see it.   But keep in mind, it should last a good bit, because they drink so little and is better for them. 

     Keep it refrigerated after opening, but put it in an air-tight glass jar for storing.  Take out only what you think you will use at each feeding ... do not pour back into the original batch any that was not used because of cross contaminating.  If you use a very small jar (such as a 2 to 4 ounce container that had baby food or jelly or shrimp cocktail in it), when feeding them, you can store any left over for the next feeding in that jar.  I usually start with about an ounce and see how far it will go. 

     Do NOT heat it in the microwave.

     Place the small feeding jar in a coffee cup or soup bowl with a handle, with hot water in it to warm the formula (goat's milk).   Bring it up to room temperature or slightly above, careful not to get it to hot.  If they are real hungry, or you are running late, you can take a short cut warming it by running hot water over the outside of the feeding jar.

      Be prepared ... this is not a hurry-up session ... it takes time.  When Mocha had her quads (my first set) and I was feeding them on the hour every hour, it seemed like I only had about 15 to 20 minutes bread between feeding and got very little sleep ... I slept in an office chair with my feet in the other chair, in the chin room for the first 4 days and nights, grabbing cat naps, when I could.

    Chinchilla kits are usually tucked up under mom nursing about 80% of the time ... the other 20% of the time they are taking years off your life while you watch them scrap with each other and climbing to the top of the cage, turning loose and falling to the bottom.

     I'll keep my fingers crossed for today ... remember I said, "that puts her very close to due, if she got pregnant during the 2nd cycle after the kits were born."  I was basing that on a 111 day gestation schedule.   
 
     Keep us posted! 

 
Jo Ann

[KCchins]

You will find canned goats milk in the baking section of your grocery store in the canned milk area.  Mix one can of water into the goats milk.

Best of luck with the delivery and new kits.

[QTPie61282]

Thanks guys.  Im heading to get some now.  And some of those droppers and glass jars.

She definitely has me thinking about her all day. I came home during lunch....No babies.
After work..... No babies.
But I will let her run around again tonight.  That seemed to help her and stimulate things.
The kits arent moving as much as I had noticed them.  And Jo Ann you said this was also a
big sign.
Ill keep you all posted.

OH and I bought two chins from Jim Ritterspach and they came in today.  So I am just glowing
with excitement.  Babies would only put me over the edge of happiness!!

[Jo Ann]

     On adding a can of water ... I almost forgot.
       Since it is 1/2 goats milk and 1/2 water, keep the goat's milk full strength in the glass jar in the refrigerator after opening.
       When you are ready to feed, boil the water, then put an equal amount of water to an equal amount of goat's milk ... this should have it at almost the perfect temperature, since the goat's milk will have come from the refrigerator.

     What color chins did you get from Jim?   Pictures, please!

 
Jo Ann

[KCchins]

That's a good idea about not mixing the goats milk and water prior to feeding if you are going to keep the mixture in the refrigerator Joanne.  After I mix my goats milk I freeze what I am not going to use in 2 days in an ice cube tray.  When the cubes are frozen I put them freezer bags and thaw one cube as needed.  I waste less goats milk that way and always have some on hand if needed.

[QTPie61282]

Thats a great idea on freezing the milk.  This is after its mixed with the water correct?

Still no babies!!  But she has grown much more lethargic.  I think she has put herself on
bed rest.

The chins I got from Jim......I got a Violet Male, a year old....and a Standard sapphire carrier Female, almost a year old.
Of course I wont be breeding them together.  I have a standard violet and ebony carrier female for this male waiting for him.  No male for the sapphire carrier yet.  But I couldnt pass her up.  I have the pictures of them that were on his website.  I have yet to take some of my own because I dont want to stress them out right now since they
just got off the plane.

Heres some pics (from Jims website) of Vinny my new Violet...





And some of his pics of Aliaha my Standard /SC female





Oh I got the goats milk by the way, and some droppers too.  Im just making sure Im prepared for this large litter.

[QTPie61282]

I just wanted to mention just incase it is something I should be worried about.  Yesterday, after Kiwi moved from her one spot, I noticed a lot of wet shavings from under her.  It could be just urine since she hasnt moved really and just urinated under herself.  But then this morning I went in to check on her and I had her walk towards me and underneath her again was more wet shavings, not as much as yesterdays but a section of wetness.  Again, could be urine, but I just wanted to know that if her water did break and nothing happened with a baby, there should be blood seen at some point correct?
Am I safe in assuming this is just urine.  I smelled it and couldnt really tell because it smelled like wet pine.
She is drinking a lot of water, and Im not seeing the babies move as much as they had been.  They are still moving, but barely.