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[QTPie61282]

Her last litter she had 3 babies.
I put her and the kits back in with dad when they were about 4-5 weeks old, when they couldnt fit through his cage wire anymore.  Im not sure of her non pregnant weight. i havent weighed her for a few years, when she was a normal size.  Shes not a very large chin, if I had to guess, maybe around 550 to 600g. her mate is about 515grams and shes just a bit bigger than him.
She is 5 years old I believe.  I forgot the exact date, Ill have to dig through my papers.

Around the 15th she was laying on her side a lot and drinking alot, doing stretches.  That was why I thought it would happen back then, but its 3 weeks since that date, and 2 weeks since I first saw a baby move.
Today she started getting antsy.  Walking around the small cage a lot, (i have a divider I put in the cage to separate the male and female so it makes it smaller) and she acts like she wants to jump to one of the higher perches, but never tries to.  everytime I open the door she comes over to me and really tries to get out., today was the first time i noticed this behavior.
I put my hand up so she doesnt jump the 5 inches shes off the floor, and she scratches at my hand with her front paw as if she was digging to get through.
The babies are still moving, a lot might I add.
Shes still eating well, gaining weight well, and drinking water.  Im not to sure if its more than usual, because for 2 weeks shes been drinking a bit more than usual.  She eats her hay nicely.

I took pictures of her and recorded some of the babies kicking.
I cant right now, but I will post them tomorrow so you can see her.

I have no female right now thats nursing.  One of my other females wont be due until June. 
I can definitely supplement if it comes down to it.
I work at a vets office as a nurse so I have good access to supplements, and the exotic doctor I go to is great. I dont know if shes ever performed a C section though.  I would have to ask her. 
I really dont want it to come down to that.  It really makes me nervous with these guys and anesthesia.

She weighed 850.4grams today, a gain of about 3 grams since yesterday.

I will keep you posted.

Thanks for all your help

[Jo Ann]

It is good her mate is smaller than her ... many make the mistake of putting a male that is larger than the female, then all to many times, the mom has to deliver kits that are to big for her to handle.

Her last litter she had 3 babies.

The the odds of her having a large (4 or 5) litter, is not out of question, and is actually more likely.

I put her and the kits back in with dad when they were about 4-5 weeks old, when they couldnt fit through his cage wire anymore.

Just in time for her second "in season" after the kits are born.     I've done that few times myself.

... i have a divider I put in the cage to separate the male and female so it makes it smaller ...

Unless it is a solid divider, rather than just wire ... he might as well be in an open area with her.  Chinchillas have been known to mate through cage wires.

... she acts like she wants to jump to one of the higher perches ...

Perches often allow the mom to "escape" from the kits ... it is best to have nothing in her cage, other than a feeding bowl and a water bottle.  If "abandon", even for a little while, a kit can chill and/or starve.
    Huts are not acceptable unless it goes from the top of the cage to the bottom.  Kits usually climb to the top of the cage within the first 24 to 48 hours after birth.  They can climb up, but not down, so when they get to the top of the cage, they just turn loose and fall to the bottom and can hit anything as they come down ... for this reason, I always suggest a whelping cage that is no taller than 15" with good padding at the bottom.

it makes it smaller) and she acts like she wants to jump to one of the higher perches, but never tries to.  everytime I open the door she comes over to me and really tries to get out., today was the first time i noticed this behavior.
I put my hand up so she doesnt jump the 5 inches shes off the floor, and she scratches at my hand with her front paw as if she was digging to get through ...

"Antsy" is a good description ... the kits are getting bigger - pushing outward, and the cage smaller - closing in on her.  You might want to let her out to play ... just watch her closely ... she's stressed enough without getting claustrophobia.      She sounds like it is any day hour now.   
Glad to hear she is still eating, drinking and pooping normally.

I can definitely supplement if it comes down to it.
I work at a vets office as a nurse so I have good access to supplements, and the exotic doctor I go to is great.

That's great!  But now I feel a little embarrassed, going over things like you are having your first litter.   
 But it is always good to put the information out there ... many newbies will probably read this.   

It really makes me nervous with these guys and anesthesia.

I know what you mean there ... they are so delicate ... just a little to much can keep them from ever waking.
Keep us posted!

I'm always available for moral support, also.   
My phone number is on my website at the bottom of my booklet.

 
Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

So I got home from work today and still no babies. I even check on her during my lunch hour.

I took the perches out.  She cant reach them right now so theres no point in having them in there.  You are so right, i thought about letting her out for a little bit to let her run around.  Maybe thats what she needs.
I am washing her bed today to make it cleaner, she peed on it a few times.

Even though this isnt my first litter, it still helps to hear things in repetition.  Sometimes I forgot certain facts or different ways to handle something.  So dont hesitate to say what your thinking!  Im still learning too, so I can always use the pep talks.

Im going to call my exotic vet tomorrow evening if I dont see anything coming before then.  It seems like she should have had them by now.  but you said if her litter is larger, than it might take a while longer.  So thats what Im hoping for.  I was nervous that the babies would be too big for her to deliver.  Even though the male is smaller than her, it still made me nervous when I can feel them moving so much, but nothign coming out!  The thought crossed my mind, what if they cant fit?
So Im hoping for a large litter to ease my mind about the long wait.

The divider is not solid, but more of a real thick metal grid.  Kinda like the ones you put on a grill.  I can take a picture of it.

Im having breeding runs made for me too, so that will help in the future.

She is Very Antsy.  Ill let her run around.
Im going to post some of the recent pictures of her and her large self.  Ill weigh her tonight too and let you know how much shes gained since yesterday.

I just dont want to resort to C Section.  I think shell be ok, its just the longer the wait, the more nervous I get.

Pardon the way her fur looks.  I anticipated a birth a few weeks ago, so she hasnt had on in a long while.  I dont want to risk it right now.
You can see the grid in the background in some of the pictures.


















Theres a pic of Coconut, her mate.  All he does since I separated them is sit on that high perch and sleep and watch  her.  Comes down to eat and drink and thats it.

[Abby W.]

Wow!  That is one pregnant chinchilla    She definitely has that end of pregnancy look, too...the one that says "I just want these babies out!"  I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for babies in the next day or so.
Don't stress TOO much about it though, if your chin mom isn't acting like she is in distress...nature has a way of working things out in its own time...just when you think you're going to go crazy from the anxiety/anticipation...BABIES!!! 

[QTPie61282]

Thanks Abby    I just need you guys to calm me down.  I just get nervous and dont want anything to happen to her.  Im really hoping there are no still borns or anything either in there.  I saw someone really kicking tonight, almost could see a fist punching through her abdomen wall.

She gained more weight since last night.  Last night she was 850.4 and tonight she was 864.6 grams.  Since I started weighing her on the 15th of April, a Sunday, she has gained 127.6 grams in a matter of 3 weeks.

I let her get some exercise tonight, she seemed to love it and would lay down every now and then to rest and thats when I had a good chance to see the babies kick.

[Jo Ann]

Hi Jen,
   She didn't look that big until I got to the last picture of her, just above her mate, Coconut ... poor baby.  I know she is in misery!  Definite 2, probably 3, and a good chance of 4+, depending on the kits' weights and sizes.

   I found the URL to Liberty, the one I posted that had quads.  I was able to catch her at the "2 weeks to go", the flatten out and panting, the stretch and the final arch and hard labor push stages.  They are at: http://www.chinchillaclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,153.0.html
   
    Staying calm is a definite must ... she can sense your stress and it can make her stress out.

    I am sure she appreciated the exercise ... that will help her keep her muscles toned for an easier delivery also.  I have a few that will even want to run on their wheel until the last 2 weeks.  Those muscles need to stay in shape to help push the little ones out.
   
     That divider wire will not stop him from getting her, if she is willing.  You also do not want the daddy to be able to get at the kits and take out his frustrations on them.  It is rare, but sometimes happens.

     She should be OK to deliver normally, but, if she stays in labor to long and/or you see any blood without seeing a kit within a few minutes ... get her to the vet a.s.a.p.

     Sometimes it is not only size, but how the kit is being presented ... breach births can be as bad as a kit that is to large.  I'm not trying to throw you in a panic, but just to remind you of what you have to be prepaired for just encase.

      Kits should almost "pop" out, once you see the head crown, much like puppies and kittens.  If it does not and she is continuing to strain, with no success, you may have to help her out.  A constant gentle tug usually does the job ... if this does not work, you will probably have to pull hard enough that that kit will not make it, but you will possibly be saving mom's life and any kits that may still be inside.  A blocked canal can cause the kits inside to die before they can be delivered if they have to remain to long. 

     If one is born with fluid in the lungs and/or still in the sac ... do you know how to handle that one?

     The kits should quieten down for a bit before they are born ... once they get in position, mother nature has a way of keeping them there.   

 
Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

I know what to do if there is fluid in their lungs.  If its anything like puppies than Ive done it many times before.
I cup them in my hands with their heads facing my fingertips and gently but with some thrust, lift them up and quickly rush my hands downward, which usually loosens up anything and forces it out.  Ive done it with puppies a lot when they seem to be not breathing or having trouble.

Do you think taking an xray at this point would be detrimental to the babies and or mom?  Now remember I work at the hospital, so I would be holding her for it, and I would only hold her tail and thats it.  I have no intention of handling her or putting any pressure on her belly, I dont want to comprimise the babies and cause an abortion.    I was planning on just letting her walk out onto the table from her carrier, without even picking her up.  I was going to call my vet and ask her what she thought.  but I would like your opinion too.  This way Ill be somewhat prepared for the number of kits, and if they are in position or not.  It would be easier to do it before, rather than after to make sure Im not missing one or that ones hiding in there once she delivered a few.

shes laying flat and what not the past day. for the past few weeks, all she has done is lay on her side, now its the flat position and this morning I walked in and saw two legs sticking up, I thought she was dead, but as soon as she saw me she jumped up.  I dont know if she was on her back or what not , but it was weird.

Still eating well, drinking and pooping well, and gaining weight. 

[Abby W.]

An x-ray won't hurt the kits--at this point they are fully developed--in early pregnancy when the fetus is developing, an x-ray can cause damage to it.  I would worry about stressing mom out too much, though.  It sounds like she is getting close to delivery, so I wouldn't try to do too much with her.  If you think she could handle it without getting too upset, then I would do it for your own piece of mind.  But if it seems like she is going to be really stressed by it then maybe just let her be for a few more days...it sounds like she is getting really close. 

[QTPie61282]

Oh I know, I wasnt worried about causing damage to the babies with the radiation, I was worried about the stress to mom and moving her from my house to an unknown place would cause stress on her and the babies.
They are pretty close and I dont want to make an issue out of nothing if she is completely ok and she is just waiting until the right time.  Im just getting ahead of myself with worry.  I didnt see this with her during her last pregnancy.  I never really noticed the babies move, She wasnt this big last time, and I just feel like its lasting so long.
But I dont stress out in front of her because she definitely picks up on it.

If she doesnt have them by Friday, Im going to bring her in and take some xrays.  I can always post them on here too for all of you.
Ill see what point shes at on Friday morning.
But then I dont want to interfer if things are going ok.
I dont know. I guess I just have to relax and play it by ear.

She weighed 878.8 grams tonight.  Last night was 864.6

[Jo Ann]

     If the weather is pretty and it is a short trip, it may be OK, if you can make it in and out of the office smoothly.  If you and she are close, and she feels 100% safe with you, it may not stress her ... it's something you may have to play by ear.  At any point she appears the least bit stressed, just hold her, talk and calm her and make another try, if it still seems to bother her the second time, then I would stop.  This is, if you decide to do it.

     If you can take a treat that she likes, like papaya ... that usuall takes a little while to eat ... getting her to flatten out to get a good shot may be the hardest thing, but if you can ... hold her by the tail with one hand and let her nibble at the papaya while you hold it in front of her ... this usually works, if she will go for eating it from your hand.

      Also, some vets will have a tube of glass (similar to the PVC pipe, but in glass or  see-thru-plastic) that they will let an animal crawl inside of to feel secure while they do the x-rays. It can be turned or tilted to get at the right angles without actually having to put your hands on the chin. It's something you might want to call and discuss with your vet to see what he/she suggest and/or normally does.

     If it will make you more comfortable to find out if the kits are a normal size and how many, it might be worth it ... that depends on how much the "not knowing" is getting to you ... and whether or not you think it will stress her.

     It's hard to have to make that decision, but it is one only you can make.  Just weigh the good/the bad and the maybe, against the information it could provide and ask your self if the answers are worth the action.  Keep in mind knowing ahead of time is good, especially in some situations ... that way you are more prepaired, but not knowing because it might stress her and cause additional problems ... all this has to be weighed by you.

     No matter what decision you make, I think it will be the right one because it is you and your little one you are looking out for.   I know that's like tossing you a hot potato and saying don't drop it, but, all to many times these are things you have to do that no one else can or even has a right to do for you. 

      Please keep us posted and let us know what you do.   

Chinnie Hugs!
  Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

Yea, the weather was nice today, and work is no more than a mile from my house, so I brought her in over my lunch bread and held her for xrays.
She has 4 babies in there.
All their heads are facing towards her head.  None of them are heading towards the birth canal.
How long do you think it takes for them to flip around?  Does it happen a few hours before delivery, or days?

She wasnt very stressed.  Slept most of the time she was there.  And the babies are really moving around like crazy!  One jolted her so much it woke her up from her sleep.
I took pics of the xray but the computer at work wasnt working well so I couldnt send them to my email account.  I will try again tomorrow.

[Jo Ann]

Hi Jen,

    Congratulations on the quads!  Now, lets hope mother nature takes over and lets everything happen naturally.  Your part will be for you to be prepaired for them and letting your vet know to keep a "head's up" just encase she/you need help.  If there is ANY sign of blood and a kit does not appear within 30 minutes, I would get her to the vet immediately, for her and her kit's safety and your sanity.  Delaying could mean her life or death and the same for her kits.  With more kits, the odds go up for a possible breach birth.  Should she appear to be in hard labor constantly for more than 15 minutes between kits ... again, I would get with the vet, she may need help.  It can be an hour or more between births, but she should be going in and out of the hard labor between kits.

    The kits usually turn on their own during the last 12 to 24 hours and settle down quite a bit on their movements.  If you notice lots of movement, then a couple hours later ... little or no movement for a while ... get ready ... they should be delivered within 24 hours.  Mom will also increase her water intake by about 50% this last 24 hours.  The water is almost a dead give-a-way.

    The first sign of labor is usually the flattening down and panting.  I would want to be there, if at all possible, when she delivers, just to play it safe.  The larger the number of kits, the higher the chance they are not all in the delivery position.  Most of mine deliver in the early mornings or late evening.  What time of day/night does she normally deliver?

     Knowing now, that they are quads, you know why there seems to be a "delay" in delivery ... I've thought a couple of mine were going to explode before they delivered because they were so big.  Also, since their are so many, you can understand why you saw the movements so early ... no room or padding to hide them.   

     Keep in mind, the first 24 to 48 hours mom is feeding them colostrum, not milk.  What she is giving them is to help get rid of everything in their system that was their during the time she carried them.  This time is of great importance to the kits.  Try to make sure each kit is getting to nurse.  But, if push comes to shove, to fighting, the weak ones will loose out and must have some one-on-one time with mom. 

    Should mom ignore one of the kits or push it away ... mother nature's way of survival of the fittest ... that kit is in trouble and will need your attention, help and supplementing.  You will probably have to take over raising it, with the help of daddy or a foster mom, hopefully.  This could mean several things ... she does not have enough milk for all and she must shun the weakest one so the others have a chance to survive.  Or she knows that this little one is
going to die, for what ever reason, usually underdeveloped vital organs.  You not knowing which it is, should try to help this little one in it's battle for life.  To get a better idea which it might be, you can remove all of the other kits and put the one she is ignoring with her.  If she attempts to feed it, you have a good chance of helping it survive, if not, more than likely their is an internal problem with the kit and mom knows this.   If left with the mom, either she, or one of the siblings, will probably kill it, to keep it from suffering.

     With quads, you almost always have to help with some supplementing.  I prefer using goat's milk, but, their are other substitutes that can be used.  In supplementing, I keep the largest ones full so they will not be as hungry, so that the weaker ones will have the better chance in getting the most natural chinchilla milk from mom.  Goat's milk can be put into a water bottle and set up to feed the kits when you are trying to get a nap in or have to be at work.

      Time to get your nursing kit together!  And I would definitely be giving mom some extra vitamins and calcium to help her get herself in shape to care for so many.  It is always good to have critical care on hand also.

Slept most of the time she was there.

     Smart chin ... trying to rest now for the strength she will need later.   

     As far as the x-ray ... when copying it, if you leave the lid up on the copier and, if you have one, shine a bright light down on the x-ray while it is being copied, it will usually be easier seen on the copy.

     Keep us posted!

 
Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

Thanks definitely for all the advice and the tips.
I guess they are kind of like dogs and cats in a way that they will ignore the sick ones if they know somethings wrong.
I think all rodents do this too.

What are the chances that she would need a C Section, I really hope it doesnt come to this.
I showed the xrays to one of the other doctors today at work and she might think there is 5.  Definitely 4 for sure, but a possibility on 5.
Ill keep my eyes open on the signs.  I definitely want to be there, Im in their room all the time.  I think they are getting sick of me.

Im just worried about the breech.  This is my biggest concern.  I know most chins dont get Dystocia but with more babies, I bet its very common.
She had her last litter on a Sunday morning, like right before 9 am.  I walked in there at 9:30 and she was cleaning them off, the white one was still bloody and wet.
So early morning I would say.  This will be her second litter.

[Jo Ann]

The chances on a C-section is totally unknown.  Everything could go like clock work or the first one could be breach and it could all go down hill from the start ... that's why I said what I did about signs of blood or long hard labor with nothing appearing.  Now, she will clean herself, so watch for spots of blood on the bedding or on her fur that she can not reach.

Did the doctor think there was a third one on her left side?  She looks a little larger on the left side from the picture, that's why I said maybe 5.  If it is hard for them to tell how many now, it may be another week or two.  (Don't scream to loud when you let the thoughts of another week or two of this sink in.)   Liberty's last month and Giget's last month, I kept thinking "She can't keep them in there much longer or they will start popping out the sides!".   

If there is even a chance of a fifth one, you should be there if at all possible ... she may not have the strength to deliver and take care of them all, especially during delivery and right at first.  Please read over the part about what to do if they are still in the sac ... even though it is much like the puppies and kittens I am sure you have helped with ... just much smaller.   The sling method for fluid in the lungs is much safer than the suction ... their little lungs are so small, they can be easily collapsed with suction.  I tell others to practice with a salt shaker, they will not be much bigger than your fingers and you will have to have a good grip on them.  With five, the weights will be on the lean side ... probably all under 45 grams.  Any born under 35 grams will have to be watched very carefully.

Keep a roll of paper towels near by ... they are disposable, but mainly, they are much more absorbant than cloth when cleaning a kit.

As soon as you get one clean, let momma have it back, or she may become upset or stressed ... you do not want that.  She needs to keep their scents so that she will not reject them. 

    Stock up on formula and/or goat's milk and glass eye droppers.  Glass because they can be sterilized.  A couple of extra water bottles for the goat's milk would be a good idea ... steralize between feedings.

    With a chinchilla, feeding them is different from feeding a kitten or puppy.  They will bite off the nipple of a bottle and suck an eye dropper down into the throat if you are not extremely careful.
    Just wrap the kit in a wash cloth, keep Q-Tips and a moist cloth handy to help clean milk that drips down ... as it drips ... don't give it a chance to dry, or the fur will slip loose when you are trying to clean them.
  Put one drop on their lips at a time and let them go at their own speed.
  When giving them the drop, be careful not to let the dropper go inside the kits mouth ... they have a very strong ability to suck and can suck the dropper all the way in, in a split second.
  Hold the dropper between your thumb and pointing finger and keep your pinky finger locked straight and braced against the hand holding the kit.
   Check out "First Signs of Trouble" with short videos on how to feed a chinchilla kit at:  http://www.geocities.com/jobernstein1949/

Don't worry about her being sick of seeing you in the room ... she will appreciate it when everything goes into motion.   

No more dust baths till the kits come, and none until they are 10 days old, for momma or the kits.


   Have fun ... just joking!

 
Jo Ann

[QTPie61282]

Yup, the sling method.  That is what I was referring to, I just didnt have a term for it.  I never suction, it makes me nervous, we never do in other animals either.
Thanks for all your help.  Another week or two is ok with me as long as it keeps her and her babies healthy.

Unfortunately since I thought she was going to deliver a while ago, she hasnt had a dust bath in a few weeks, almost a month.  I feel bad, but I definitely cant give her one now, its cutting it too close.

I like the eye dropper in that picture, Ill get some of those.  I didnt even think of why they couldnt use bottle nipples, I forget puppies arent born with teeth, as chinchillas are.
Good call!

My main reason for wanting them to come soon is because she is just achin, complete discomfort and it makes me feel bad.

Yes, the doctor thought she saw a third one on the Left side, there was definitely two that were superimposed on each other, and she thought she might have seen a third with them.  Two definitely on the other side.
Im still waiting to get the pictures of the rads but in due time.